doublegunshop.com - home
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Immigration - 11/20/14 04:32 PM
I recommend Andy Borowizt's column in The New Yorker, GOP Unveils New Immigration Plan." We must make America somewhere no one wants to live."
Posted By: craigd Re: Immigration - 11/20/14 04:51 PM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
....GOP Unveils New Immigration Plan." We must make America somewhere no one wants to live."


I suppose, even without hearing the 'plan', you already support the pres. in whatever he comes up with later today.

Why's this coming up now? He'll be the same 'emperor', his word, in January. Hope it'll make you feel better that your guy wants to take us into Thanksgiving bad mouthing a good chunk of 'his' citizens.

If he has a little energy, what would stop him from propping up sagging ocare popularity. You're on his side and will take whatever comes out of his mouth. I noticed you stepped out of the ss 'discussion'. Out of sight out of mind for some does not mean the Social Security Disability Ins problem goes away.

Are you waiting for him to 'blame' R's in '15 for hating the poor and crippled, so you can come back with another TEA Party reference. Why don't you hold his feet to the fire to address an issue that's near and dear to your heart. I'm not worried about the sofa queens, I'm referring to the legitimate in need that he'll turn into a political football in a few months.

Do you like that he went to Australia and talked US domestic politics, and bad mouthed his own and the host country. Leadership?
Posted By: Dave K Re: Immigration - 11/20/14 05:09 PM
here are 22 Times Obama said he could not do what he is doing, be careful Rky,when the Dems Dirty Harry changed the Senate rule to help them when in power are now going to help the R's and the same will go for President Cruz !



1. “I take the Constitution very seriously. The biggest problems that we’re facing right now have to do with [the president] trying to bring more and more power into the executive branch and not go through Congress at all
. And that’s what I intend to reverse when I’m President of the United States of America.” (3/31/08)

2. “We’ve got a government designed by the Founders so that there’d be checks and balances. You don’t want a president who’s too powerful or a Congress that’s too powerful or a court that’s too powerful. Everybody’s got their own role. Congress’s job is to pass legislation. The president can veto it or he can sign it. … I believe in the Constitution and I will obey the Constitution of the United States. We’re not going to use signing statements as a way of doing an end-run around Congress.” (5/19/08)

3. “Comprehensive reform, that’s how we’re going to solve this problem. … Anybody who tells you it’s going to be easy or that I can wave a magic wand and make it happen hasn’t been paying attention to how this town works.” (5/5/10)

4. “[T]here are those in the immigrants’ rights community who have argued passionately that we should simply provide those who are [here] illegally with legal status, or at least ignore the laws on the books and put an end to deportation until we have better laws. … I believe such an indiscriminate approach would be both unwise and unfair. It would suggest to those thinking about coming here illegally that there will be no repercussions for such a decision. And this could lead to a surge in more illegal immigration. And it would also ignore the millions of people around the world who are waiting in line to come here legally. Ultimately, our nation, like all nations, has the right and obligation to control its borders and set laws for residency and citizenship. And no matter how decent they are, no matter their reasons, the 11 million who broke these laws should be held accountable.” (7/1/10)

5. “I do have an obligation to make sure that I am following some of the rules. I can’t simply ignore laws that are out there. I’ve got to work to make sure that they are changed.” (10/14/10)

6. “I am president, I am not king. I can’t do these things just by myself. We have a system of government that requires the Congress to work with the Executive Branch to make it happen. I’m committed to making it happen, but I’ve got to have some partners to do it. … The main thing we have to do to stop deportations is to change the laws. … [T]he most important thing that we can do is to change the law because the way the system works – again, I just want to repeat, I’m president, I’m not king. If Congress has laws on the books that says that people who are here who are not documented have to be deported, then I can exercise some flexibility in terms of where we deploy our resources, to focus on people who are really causing problems as a opposed to families who are just trying to work and support themselves. But there’s a limit to the discretion that I can show because I am obliged to execute the law. That’s what the Executive Branch means. I can’t just make the laws up by myself. So the most important thing that we can do is focus on changing the underlying laws.” (10/25/10)

7. “America is a nation of laws, which means I, as the President, am obligated to enforce the law. I don’t have a choice about that. That’s part of my job. But I can advocate for changes in the law so that we have a country that is both respectful of the law but also continues to be a great nation of immigrants. … With respect to the notion that I can just suspend deportations through executive order, that’s just not the case, because there are laws on the books that Congress has passed …. [W]e’ve got three branches of government. Congress passes the law. The executive branch’s job is to enforce and implement those laws. And then the judiciary has to interpret the laws. There are enough laws on the books by Congress that are very clear in terms of how we have to enforce our immigration system that for me to simply through executive order ignore those congressional mandates would not conform with my appropriate role as President.” (3/28/11)

8. “I can’t solve this problem by myself. … [W]e’re going to have to have bipartisan support in order to make it happen. … I can’t do it by myself. We’re going to have to change the laws in Congress, but I’m confident we can make it happen.” (4/20/11)

9. “I know some here wish that I could just bypass Congress and change the law myself. But that’s not how democracy works. See, democracy is hard. But it’s right. Changing our laws means doing the hard work of changing minds and changing votes, one by one.” (4/29/11)

10. “Sometimes when I talk to immigration advocates, they wish I could just bypass Congress and change the law myself. But that’s not how a democracy works. What we really need to do is to keep up the fight to pass genuine, comprehensive reform. That is the ultimate solution to this problem. That’s what I’m committed to doing.” (5/10/11)

11. “I swore an oath to uphold the laws on the books …. Now, I know some people want me to bypass Congress and change the laws on my own. Believe me, the idea of doing things on my own is very tempting. I promise you. Not just on immigration reform. But that’s not how our system works. That’s not how our democracy functions. That’s not how our Constitution is written.” (7/25/11)

12. “So what we’ve tried to do is within the constraints of the laws on the books, we’ve tried to be as fair, humane, just as we can, recognizing, though, that the laws themselves need to be changed. … The most important thing for your viewers and listeners and readers to understand is that in order to change our laws, we’ve got to get it through the House of Representatives, which is currently controlled by Republicans, and we’ve got to get 60 votes in the Senate. … Administratively, we can’t ignore the law. … I just have to continue to say this notion that somehow I can just change the laws unilaterally is just not true. We are doing everything we can administratively. But the fact of the matter is there are laws on the books that I have to enforce. And I think there’s been a great disservice done to the cause of getting the DREAM Act passed and getting comprehensive immigration passed by perpetrating the notion that somehow, by myself, I can go and do these things. It’s just not true. … We live in a democracy. You have to pass bills through the legislature, and then I can sign it. And if all the attention is focused away from the legislative process, then that is going to lead to a constant dead-end. We have to recognize how the system works, and then apply pressure to those places where votes can be gotten and, ultimately, we can get this thing solved.” (9/28/11)

In June 2012, President Obama unilaterally granted deferred action for childhood arrivals (DACA), allowing “eligible individuals who do not present a risk to national security or public safety … to request temporary relief from deportation proceedings and apply for work authorization.” He then argued that he had already done everything he could legally do on his own:

1. “Now, what I’ve always said is, as the head of the executive branch, there’s a limit to what I can do. Part of the reason that deportations went up was Congress put a whole lot of money into it, and when you have a lot of resources and a lot more agents involved, then there are going to be higher numbers. What we’ve said is, let’s make sure that you’re not misdirecting those resources. But we’re still going to, ultimately, have to change the laws in order to avoid some of the heartbreaking stories that you see coming up occasionally. And that’s why this continues to be a top priority of mine. … And we will continue to make sure that how we enforce is done as fairly and justly as possible. But until we have a law in place that provides a pathway for legalization and/or citizenship for the folks in question, we’re going to continue to be bound by the law. … And so part of the challenge as President is constantly saying, ‘what authorities do I have?’” (9/20/12)

2. “We are a nation of immigrants. … But we’re also a nation of laws.
So what I’ve said is, we need to fix a broken immigration system. And I’ve done everything that I can on my own[.]” (10/16/12)

3. “I’m not a king. I am the head of the executive branch of government. I’m required to follow the law. And that’s what we’ve done. But what I’ve also said is, let’s make sure that we’re applying the law in a way that takes into account people’s humanity. That’s the reason that we moved forward on deferred action. Within the confines of the law we said, we have some discretion in terms of how we apply this law.” (1/30/13)

4. “I’m not a king. You know, my job as the head of the executive branch ultimately is to carry out the law. And, you know, when it comes to enforcement of our immigration laws, we’ve got some discretion. We can prioritize what we do. But we can’t simply ignore the law. When it comes to the dreamers, we were able to identify that group and say, ‘These folks are generally not a risk. They’re not involved in crime. … And so let’s prioritize our enforcement resources.’ But to sort through all the possible cases of everybody who might have a sympathetic story to tell is very difficult to do. This is why we need comprehensive immigration reform. To make sure that once and for all, in a way that is, you know, ratified by Congress, we can say that there is a pathway to citizenship for people who are staying out of trouble, who are trying to do the right thing, who’ve put down roots here. … My job is to carry out the law. And so Congress gives us a whole bunch of resources. They give us an order that we’ve got to go out there and enforce the laws that are on the books. … If this was an issue that I could do unilaterally I would have done it a long time ago. … The way our system works is Congress has to pass legislation. I then get an opportunity to sign it and implement it.” (1/30/13)

5. “This is something I’ve struggled with throughout my presidency. The problem is that I’m the president of the United States, I’m not the emperor of the United States. My job is to execute laws that are passed. And Congress right now has not changed what I consider to be a broken immigration system. And what that means is that we have certain obligations to enforce the laws that are in place even if we think that in many cases the results may be tragic.” (2/14/13)

6. “I think that it is very important for us to recognize that the way to solve this problem has to be legislative. I can do some things and have done some things that make a difference in the lives of people by determining how our enforcement should focus. … And we’ve been able to provide help through deferred action for young people …. But this is a problem that needs to be fixed legislatively.” (7/16/13)

7. “My job in the executive branch is supposed to be to carry out the laws that are passed. Congress has said ‘here is the law’ when it comes to those who are undocumented, and they’ve allocated a whole bunch of money for enforcement. And, what I have been able to do is to make a legal argument that I think is absolutely right, which is that given the resources that we have, we can’t do everything that Congress has asked us to do. What we can do is then carve out the DREAM Act folks, saying young people who have basically grown up here are Americans that we should welcome. … But if we start broadening that, then essentially I would be ignoring the law in a way that I think would be very difficult to defend legally. So that’s not an option. … What I’ve said is there is a there’s a path to get this done, and that’s through Congress.” (9/17/13)

8. “[I]f, in fact, I could solve all these problems without passing laws in Congress, then I would do so. But we’re also a nation of laws. That’s part of our tradition. And so the easy way out is to try to yell and pretend like I can do something by violating our laws. And what I’m proposing is the harder path, which is to use our democratic processes to achieve the same goal that you want to achieve. … It is not simply a matter of us just saying we’re going to violate the law. That’s not our tradition. The great thing about this country is we have this wonderful process of democracy, and sometimes it is messy, and sometimes it is hard, but ultimately, justice and truth win out.” (11/25/13)

9. “I am the Champion-in-Chief of comprehensive immigration reform. But what I’ve said in the past remains true, which is until Congress passes a new law, then I am constrained in terms of what I am able to do. What I’ve done is to use my prosecutorial discretion, because you can’t enforce the laws across the board for 11 or 12 million people, there aren’t the resources there. What we’ve said is focus on folks who are engaged in criminal activity, focus on people who are engaged in gang activity. Do not focus on young people, who we’re calling DREAMers …. That already stretched my administrative capacity very far. But I was confident that that was the right thing to do. But at a certain point the reason that these deportations are taking place is, Congress said, ‘you have to enforce these laws.’ They fund the hiring of officials at the department that’s charged with enforcing. And I cannot ignore those laws any more than I could ignore, you know, any of the other laws that are on the books. That’s why it’s so important for us to get comprehensive immigration reform done this year.” (3/6/14)

10. “I think that I never have a green light [to push the limits of executive power]. I’m bound by the Constitution; I’m bound by separation of powers. There are some things we can’t do. Congress has the power of the purse, for example. … Congress has to pass a budget and authorize spending. So I don’t have a green light. … My preference in all these instances is to work with Congress, because not only can Congress do more, but it’s going to be longer-lasting.” (8/6/14)
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Immigration - 11/20/14 05:10 PM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
I recommend Andy Borowizt's column in The New Yorker, GOP Unveils New Immigration Plan." We must make America somewhere no one wants to live."


The peak of illegal immigration occured prior to Obama taking office-he has done quite well at making sure the economy is bad enough that those who show up won't find any work. And, that word has gotten out. But, he also did get the word out, that, in countries other than Mexico, that if residents could get their kids here, the adults could come later. And stay.

Nobody would force their minor kids to go it alone on a border crossing without some assurance thay would be re-united with them.

Nobody.

I believe we need to mine the first 500 yards of the American side of the US and Mexican border. It won't be secure until we do this. And if the border isn't secure, there is nothing else to talk about.


Best,
Ted
Posted By: gunut Re: Immigration - 11/20/14 05:29 PM
trouble is both sides like the illegals....conservative businessmen like to get the cheap/slave labor wages that illegals will work for...plus the way it drives down wages of legal citizens....liberals want to save the world no matter what it costs conservatives and the rest of the country, plus all the added democrat voting hoarded masses...

no matter how you look at it Americas working middle class looses...
Posted By: Dave K Re: Immigration - 11/20/14 05:44 PM
Obama’s Amnesty Will Add As Many Foreign Workers As New Jobs Since 2009

http://dailycaller.com/2014/11/20/obamas...obs-since-2009/

President Barack Obama’s unilateral amnesty will quickly add as many foreign workers to the nation’s legal labor force as the total number of new jobs created by his economy since 2009
Posted By: Jagermeister Re: Immigration - 11/20/14 06:46 PM
Originally Posted By: gunut
trouble is both sides like the illegals....conservative businessmen like to get the cheap/slave labor wages that illegals will work for...plus the way it drives down wages of legal citizens....liberals want to save the world no matter what it costs conservatives and the rest of the country, plus all the added democrat voting hoarded masses...

no matter how you look at it Americas working middle class looses...


Bingo.

It looks like the only folks that will benefit from amnesty are democratic politicians. Ok, legalized aliens also benefit but we don't care about that.
Posted By: craigd Re: Immigration - 11/20/14 10:40 PM
Originally Posted By: gunut
....conservative businessmen like to get the cheap/slave labor wages that illegals will work for...plus the way it drives down wages of legal citizens....

....no matter how you look at it Americas working middle class looses...


I dunno. By most accounts, illegals are able to live better in the US than their mex home towns, and send money to mexico for family to use on top of that. The activists want to hope-n-change it, but I don't know if the illegal felons want their gravy train stalled by regs and labor laws. They're going to be stuck with the same smoke n mirror stats that joe middle class figures out just ain't as good as it used to be.

I'd doubt these illegals are putting on suits or punching time clocks on assembly lines. They're doing stuff that no one else wants to, and they're attracted to those jobs. The middle class wants big benny packages and nine to five that their kids are suppose to pay for when they go into the 'labor' force. That's drying up because it just isn't there.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Immigration - 11/20/14 11:06 PM
Originally Posted By: Ted Schefelbein

I believe we need to mine the first 500 yards of the American side of the US and Mexican border. It won't be secure until we do this. And if the border isn't secure, there is nothing else to talk about.


Best,
Ted


Exactly
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Immigration - 11/21/14 01:01 AM
Ted, When children were pouring across the border, why didn't you volunteer to take your varmint rifle to Arizona and do your patriotic duty to defend your country?
Posted By: craigd Re: Immigration - 11/21/14 01:30 AM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
Ted, When children were pouring across the border, why didn't you volunteer to take your varmint rifle to Arizona and do your patriotic duty to defend your country?


Awe, c'mon Bill, the vermin are the coyote's. I had a look around, I guess none of the kids made it up to Montana? Too bad, there's still a need even if it's in someone else's back yard. Then again, didn't we spread those tatoo'd gang banger 'kids' to different non Montana corners of the country.
Posted By: GaryW Re: Immigration - 11/21/14 03:25 AM
Andy Borowitzt is a comedian whose articles have a small disclaimer at the bottom stating it is political satire; meaning it is bullsh%%. Unfortunately, many do not bother to read the disclaimer(which negates any lawsuits)and think it is the truth, resulting in that article appearing on many liberal websites and blogs by nabobs who don't hold a real job. It's no coincidence Obama made this announcement on the anniversary of Francisco Madero's November 20, 1910 revolution; a Mexican holiday celebrated each year. Since the Liar & Corruption-in-Chief is no longer fawned over (except by the liberal media and moronic, die-hard democrats)he needs a new adoring public. And, the dems need the future votes.
Unfortunately, this is just the tip of the iceberg; he will execute further orders for more amnesty and possibly pardons for all illegal trespassers and his unchecked actions will be used by future democrat presidents because he got away with it.
Posted By: postoak Re: Immigration - 11/21/14 04:41 AM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
Ted, When children were pouring across the border, why didn't you volunteer to take your varmint rifle to Arizona and do your patriotic duty to defend your country?


Why don't you buy about 3000 thousand of them a Bus Ticket to your house and raise them yourself.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Immigration - 11/21/14 04:56 AM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
Ted, When children were pouring across the border, why didn't you volunteer to take your varmint rifle to Arizona and do your patriotic duty to defend your country?


Er, me thinks the much better question is why, after all these years, is the border porous enough for children of any stripe to pour across?
I mean, it is the law that the border is supposed to be secured. But, it isn't.
And, it was no accident that those kids showed up at the border at that time.


You go first, Bill. By the way, I don't own a varmint rifle. Closest I come is .22 long rifle.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Immigration - 11/21/14 04:59 AM
I'd like to know if the scripture Obama was quoting in his political speech tonight was from the Bible or the Koran ?
Posted By: Dave K Re: Immigration - 11/21/14 12:52 PM
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Immigration - 11/21/14 01:16 PM
Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
I'd like to know if the scripture Obama was quoting in his political speech tonight was from the Bible or the Koran ?


I'm betting it's from the Koran
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Immigration - 11/21/14 08:13 PM
" I'm betting it's from the Koran." Having studied both books at great length, Joe, you surely didn't need to raise the question. Here's a passage for you: "As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool returns to his folly." Here's a hint too: it's not from the Koran
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Immigration - 11/21/14 11:01 PM
And so you return....
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Immigration - 11/22/14 05:32 AM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
" I'm betting it's from the Koran." Having studied both books at great length, Joe, you surely didn't need to raise the question. Here's a passage for you: "As a dog returns to his vomit, so a fool returns to his folly." Here's a hint too: it's not from the Koran


While we are on the subject of fools and folly, BIll, how come you skipped right over my question, and onto another?

It was a really simple question-why isn't our border secure?

Give me your very best, liberal, pantywaist, weasel answer as to why, in this day and age of shock and awe, dirty bombs and the herds bellying up to collect their 72 virgins, we can't get something done that the Spartans did, because they considered a secure border tantamount to their survival. Why can packs of minor children scamper across our border whenever their little hearts desire, Bill? Without worrying about what they will eat, where they will stay, who will pay for their medical treatment, and, last but not least, about me or anyone else with a varmint rifle driving them back from where they came?

Go ahead.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Immigration - 11/22/14 07:06 PM
Ted, Here's my best explanation. All problems come with priorities. Illegal immigrants are a problem, but they're not threatening the existence of our civilization. As a civil and civilized nation, we are willing to fence and patrol a lot of the southern border which does lower the rate of infiltration very significantly. We are not, however, willing to violently repel people who come seeking a better life. No one would volunteer to shoot women and children when they set foot on our soil. And that is what it would take. As a whole and as a Christian nation we would rather suffer the expense of accepting a degree of illegal immigration than forcefully repelling all invaders. In addition, there is the consideration other posts have mentioned: economically we need these workers. As is often pointed out here, some Americans are lazy. They don't want to do stoop labor. Picking strawberries is very hard work. Before I moved from southern Oregon, I saw farmers ploughing their strawberry crops under because they couldn't hire people to pick them. So, as a nation we've decided to live with a measure of illegal immigration. So far, it's manageable. The Spartans were faced with people bent on exterminating them. We're faced with people so desperate for a better life that they'll send their children when they can't afford to try to accompany them. Our survival is not what is at stake here.
Posted By: postoak Re: Immigration - 11/22/14 07:48 PM
So how many can I put you down for to raise ?
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Immigration - 11/22/14 08:20 PM
poastoak, If I were younger, I just might take one in. I have four biological children and one adopted. There was a time when one more would not have been unmanageable. Now I'll willingly pay a bit more in taxes.I'm happy to live in a country others will risk their lives to get into rather than one we'd risk our lives to get out of.
Posted By: postoak Re: Immigration - 11/22/14 10:47 PM
You will not have a Country much longer.

With a strong Welfare Magnet, weak immigration policy, and an endless supply of immigrants your open wallet will not last long.

What then ?
Posted By: keith Re: Immigration - 11/23/14 01:14 AM
Illegal immigrants are just that... Illegal.

Law breakers should not be given a break when there are millions of people who are pursuing citizenship by following the rule of law. The "broken" immigration system was broken by Democrats for their own selfish purposes.

Part of the Amnesty signed into law by Reagan after being passed by the House and Senate... not an executive order... provided funding to secure the porous border. Liberal Democrats have prevented that funding from being used for its' intended purpose. As a result, we have untold millions here stealing from all of us when they use our schools, infrastructure, and health care system without paying any taxes. They are also driving down wages by taking work from poor unemployed citizens. The number of illegals has been stuck on 11 million for over a decade. The real number is probably twice that.

I have in the past done some of the hard labor that rocky mtn bill claims Americans will just not do. Even today, as technical as my job is, there is often a demanding physical component to it. I imagine many others here have as well. It would have been far easier to just sit around and collect a government check. Liberal Democrats like rocky mtn bill are the root cause of the problems we face today. They created the Welfare State and the Great Society policies which made people dependent government serfs, and they are responsible for the destruction of the black family. They support and pass all this feel good legislation and blame someone else when it does not work. And they always expect someone else to pay the bill for their abject stupidity and failure.

Worse yet, here on a firearms forum, we have guys like rocky mtn bill who support and provide cover for the Liberal Left Democrats who continually infringe upon our Second Amendment Right to own and use firearms. Guys like bill aren't part of the problem. They are the problem.
Posted By: craigd Re: Immigration - 11/23/14 01:19 AM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
....Here's my best explanation. All problems come with priorities. Illegal immigrants are a problem, but they're not threatening the existence of our civilization. As a civil and civilized nation, we are willing to fence and patrol....

....Our survival is not what is at stake here.


Interesting Bill. You opened up the topic. You felt it was a good opportunity to belittle Republicans, but it is a topic of current affairs and in the news lately because bo has decided it's the number one issue of the day.

Why don't you have any criticism for your man in dc for creating yet another divide in the country, when you're saying it's just not that important an issue.

Then again, aren't you one that complains there're too many minorities in prison. What's the percentage of illegal felon border crossers that fill, say, kali prisons. Don't you feel as a dem that our prisons are a blight on the very little civility of this nation.

By the way, no, repeat no, we are not willing to fence or patrol our southern border. There are border laws on the books, but there has to be the willingness to try to enforce those laws. There have been clear signals by bo-n-company that some laws will not be recognized let alone enforced.

Why didn't bo put this effort into actually saving the environment. To use King's words, bo's been backchanneling a bunch lately. Reports are that bo may be within a week of working an iranian nuke 'deal' if they give us a bit of window dressing help with a token strike or two against their other radical islamic brothers. What better cover than to have libs parrot the R's hate kids and hispanics line, over an unimportant issue.

He'll probably approach it like the southern border, we can look the other way, it's not that bad, I'll be making big bucks on the lecture circuit in two years. I know you'll be good with that out of sight out of mind approach. I worry if one of my grandkids will have to go to iran a few short years from now with the mil to root out radicals with nukes. You may have your own grandkids.
Posted By: Dave K Re: Immigration - 11/23/14 11:49 AM
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Immigration - 11/23/14 01:39 PM
To clarify a couple points, I'd first say that I'm not defending illegal immigration; instead, I'm interested in effective and humane ways to deal with it. Two, to portray these people as merely freeloaders is ignoring some facts. The actuary for the Social Security Administration estimates that undocumented workers paid in $100 billion dollars over the last decade without collecting any benefits. Their households paid $11 billion in taxes. This discussion turns out to be like all the others here. The hard core refuses to grant the possibility of there being two sides to the issue while dismissing dissent as lying. To have integrity, an argument should examine the issue from all sides.
Posted By: Ted Schefelbein Re: Immigration - 11/23/14 02:35 PM
Bill, that 11 billion figure sounds impressive, until you consider the simple fact that nobody hires an illegal at prevailing rate. Nobody. So, if the job the illegal was doing went to an American citizen, it would have paid better, and MORE would have been paid in taxes. I'm kind of tired of the argument that there are jobs Americans won't do, either, as I've met plenty of folks in the last few years who would have taken literally anything-had anything been available.
Sorry, but, we have laws for a reason. Any rational applied to easier immigration for south of the border Hispanics could also be applied to dozens of other countries all around the world-think your average Chinese peasant or North Korean would turn down a shot here in the states? If you really want a laugh, ask at a neighborhood meeting of your local Somali, Hmong, or Russian community (we got 'em all right here, in Mpls.) how they feel about Hispanic illegal immigration, and whether we are "humane" enough to them. The recent Russian immigrants I've met harbor no illusions of Hispanics, here illegally, being treated unfairly. You should hear what they have to say. It isn't humane. What, exactly, do we owe Hispanics that we don't owe Poles or Turks, for example? Make immigration fair, and have a legal procedure for all, get in line, pay the fees, and have the same treatment for all potential immigrants, period.
On another point, if you choose to open your wallet to pay more taxes, that is a nice choice, but, if I really would rather not, what choice do I have? Charity really shouldn't come with an "or else" from the IRS or the US Government. The liberals (like you) have confused true charity with US tax code, and I'd like my "Change" back, so to speak.
I'm willing to live with the notion that you consider it unfair of me to keep more of the money I make.

Best,
Ted
Posted By: Ken61 Re: Immigration - 11/23/14 02:40 PM
What Bill? You mean the objective and intellectual way you portray the Tea Party?

The problem is Bill, you believe in lies and mythology. Then, you demonize others who don't have your sociopathic religious beliefs.

It's pure mythology and propaganda that illegals pay a net positive amount of taxes. They are probably the worst offenders who use the Earned Income Tax Credit in order to receive taxpayer money. They simply claim multiple children, conveniently not present in the country, in order to receive the cash. This was explained to me by an illegal over 20 years ago.

Posted By: gunut Re: Immigration - 11/23/14 02:42 PM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
To clarify a couple points, I'd first say that I'm not defending illegal immigration; instead, I'm interested in effective and humane ways to deal with it. Two, to portray these people as merely freeloaders is ignoring some facts. The actuary for the Social Security Administration estimates that undocumented workers paid in $100 billion dollars over the last decade without collecting any benefits. Their households paid $11 billion in taxes. This discussion turns out to be like all the others here. The hard core refuses to grant the possibility of there being two sides to the issue while dismissing dissent as lying. To have integrity, an argument should examine the issue from all sides.


Bill;

Your argument is a lot like saying ...Don't worry to much about bank robbery as the crooks will be paying sales tax when they spend the loot...
Posted By: keith Re: Immigration - 11/23/14 02:56 PM
The problem isn't illegal immigrants, or Welfare cheats, massive deficit spending, or election fraud, or anti-gun laws, etc.

The problem is idiots like rocky mtn bill who vote for the Liberal Left Democrat politicians who run these scams which are slowly destroying the country.

Bill's posts are a graphic demonstration of why teacher pay should be directly tied to performance.
Posted By: craigd Re: Immigration - 11/23/14 03:07 PM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
To clarify a couple points, I'd first say that I'm not defending illegal immigration; instead, I'm interested in effective and humane ways to deal with it. Two, to portray these people as merely freeloaders is ignoring some facts. The actuary for the Social Security Administration estimates that undocumented workers paid in $100 billion dollars over the last decade without collecting any benefits. Their households paid $11 billion in taxes. This discussion turns out to be like all the others here. The hard core refuses to grant the possibility of there being two sides to the issue while dismissing dissent as lying. To have integrity, an argument should examine the issue from all sides.


Second time I'm bringing this issue up, from my point of view, because of refusal to acknowledge the issue is significant for many reasons.

If you can break this down into dollars and cents, you claim the taxes collected are estimates, and second you say these folks are 'undocumented', so how can you document taxes collected. To my point, is there a cost, money wise, to incarcerate illegal aliens. Can this cost to taxpayers be documented by the numbers generated by the current administration's agencies. Please note that most states report huge additional costs to state taxpayers, and significant shortfalls in federal obligations to incarcerate illegal aliens.

None of these multiple billions per year include court costs, law enforcement costs, and monetary loses by the victims. Violent crime is trending down across the nation, it is significantly up among illegal immigrants. It is estimated that drunk driving illegal immigrants kill thirteen people per day.

Can you work the numbers so that estimated tax revenues from illegal immigrants offset this one issue on cost to taxpayers. Would you care to discuss the cost to legal citizens for the 'healthcare' entitlement for undocumented patients. Are there hospitals and other health clinics in high illegal alien density areas that have closed, denying help for all, because they can not afford uncompensated services to illegal aliens. Did they close because of wealthy corporate greed or because less revenue was coming in than going out.

Can you consider that these are issues that you're not examining when it comes to cost. No, I didn't say from a compassionate or feeling point of view, but from your choice to look at the cost issue from more than your singular estimated tax revenue point of view.

I think you have other motives and agendas. I don't really look for a response, because you brush of my side of the issue as just pot stirring piss'in down your back. Never the less, I think they're part of all sides of the cost issue with the luxury of ignoring the pain and suffering of the victims.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Immigration - 11/23/14 03:11 PM
Just look what the illegals have done to the sale section on this site.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Immigration - 11/23/14 03:17 PM
Originally Posted By: keith

The problem is idiots like rocky mtn bill who vote for the Liberal Left Democrat politicians who run these scams which are slowly destroying the country.

Bill's posts are a graphic demonstration of why teacher pay should be directly tied to performance.


Amen
Posted By: treblig1958 Re: Immigration - 11/23/14 03:57 PM
There is no limit in what the democrats will do to grovel for votes, either legally or illegally.
Posted By: JCHannum Re: Immigration - 11/23/14 08:02 PM
In addition to taking jobs from American citizens, immigrants send a large portion of their income to family back home. Mexico alone receives well over twenty billion dollars a year. This is only the amount that is documented as having been sent from financial institutions, the true amount is much larger as much is sent in the form of cash either by mail or smuggling. This is money taken directly out of our economy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...ilies-home.html
Posted By: GaryW Re: Immigration - 11/23/14 10:25 PM
47 million already on welfare in the United States..........
and this "emperor" is inviting more to the table. He doesn't give a rat's ass about the Mexicans, Guatemalans, Hondurans, or anyone else. All that matters is the democratic party has a larger voter base that is entirely dependent on them for their existence.
The three biggest assets to Mexico's economy is oil & gas, tourism, and money sent back by "illegal immigrants".
Obama and the dems are willingly demoting our economy and building up Mexico's with this amnesty bullsh**. Liberals can spin it any way they want, but it doesn't change the facts.
The groundswell of "children" this past summer is already wreaking economic (and educational) havoc on many U.S. school districts. The $$ burden for this falls on the state which ultimately falls on the taxpayer. And the dem/libs are the protectors of the middle class? Give--me--a--break.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Immigration - 11/24/14 01:20 PM
It goes back to Obama's roots....

He was born in a third world country and he plans on turning the United States into one.
Posted By: Dave K Re: Immigration - 11/24/14 01:53 PM
Once again, even SNL has gone against Obama.


Posted By: craigd Re: Immigration - 11/24/14 03:39 PM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
....Now I'll willingly pay a bit more in taxes....


The Heritage Foundation says the cost of amnesty to four million illegals would be 40 billion per year, over a very long time. That doesn't account for any others far and beyond that four million that could come out of the woodwork. It does not account for the green light it would give to the illegal alien trade.

If every drop of pump gas was taxed to make up the difference, it comes out to an additional 30 cents a gallon. Is what you are willing to do fair to a poor person that doesn't have the extras that you do. Would you call that just 'a bit more'.
Posted By: keith Re: Immigration - 11/24/14 05:17 PM
Not a problem craigd, because in typical Libtard fashion, rocky mtn bill would suggest that we increase taxes on the rich and increase corporate taxes. Then when even more corporations move jobs and operations overseas, bill would blame the greedy capitalists.

Then he will come back here spouting support for the extremely anti-gun Hillary Clinton and other anti-gun Liberal Left Democrats. Nothing we say will ever change it either, because you just can't fix stupid.
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Immigration - 11/24/14 05:49 PM
Sean Hannity says he's evolved on immigration. Folks who can't evolve may find the future even more painful than they've imagined. Get over it. We have more serious problems to solve.
Posted By: Dave K Re: Immigration - 11/24/14 05:57 PM
Posted By: rocky mtn bill Re: Immigration - 11/24/14 06:09 PM
Tell that to Sean Hannity.
Posted By: JCHannum Re: Immigration - 11/24/14 07:54 PM
You might want to examine what Hannity's "evolution" entails. His number one point is to secure the border, then create a pathway to citizenship for those who have been here and been law abiding citizens. They do not have to go home, that is what he has evolved on, not blanket amnesty for millions.
Posted By: craigd Re: Immigration - 11/24/14 09:10 PM
Originally Posted By: rocky mtn bill
Sean Hannity says he's evolved on immigration. Folks who can't evolve may find the future even more painful than they've imagined. Get over it. We have more serious problems to solve.


Sorry about that Bill. So, I take it that you have evolved on your net positive tax windfall stance. This topic was started four or five days ago, what came up that's more important now?
Posted By: Dave K Re: Immigration - 11/24/14 09:41 PM
Posted By: Dave K Re: Immigration - 11/24/14 09:43 PM
Reminder: Green Cards For Millions of Illegal Immigrants Means Longer Wait Times For Legal Immigrants

"At current staffing levels, USCIS issues about 1 million green cards per year. And when Obama enacted his first executive amnesty, the Deferred Action for Childhood Arrivals in 2012, wait times for legal immigrants to get their visas tripled from under five months to over 15 months.

Only about 1 million illegal immigrants were eligible to apply for DACA amnesty and only about 600,000 were given amnesty. Obama's next amnesty, however, will reportedly allow up to 5 million illegal immigrants to apply and no one knows how many will take him up on the offer.


But assuming the turnout for Obama's next amnesty is bigger than DACA, we can safely assume that legal immigration delays will get much much worse.
Posted By: James M Re: Immigration - 11/24/14 10:11 PM
Originally Posted By: JCHannum
You might want to examine what Hannity's "evolution" entails. His number one point is to secure the border, then create a pathway to citizenship for those who have been here and been law abiding citizens. They do not have to go home, that is what he has evolved on, not blanket amnesty for millions.


In my opinion I think we ought to ship all 11 million of them back across the border and secure it as well. Can't be done? That's EXACTLY what was done during the Eisenhower Administration.
If we HAVE to compromise the approach offered by Hannity and others may be the most tenable. One way or another we can't let the Kenyan have his way and allow 5,000,000 + illegals to stay here with no penalty whatsoever. With the border still wide open this will just encourage millions more to come across.
Since the Kenyan and his minions apparently had no idea they were going to take a real bashing Nov 4th I bet they're equally clueless as to just how incensed the rank and file in this country are over his spitting on the Constitution and other issues that have been discussed in great detail here. The REAL fight is just beginning.
Jim
Posted By: keith Re: Immigration - 11/25/14 10:44 AM
rocky mtn bill, did you seriously think you could fool a bunch of Conservatives into thinking that Sean Hannity had reversed his position on amnesty for illegal immigrants? Did you honestly think that no one here tunes in to FOX News?

I knew from past experience that you weren't very bright, but your performance in this thread is just sad.

Tell us what you really did for a living. I refuse to believe that any state would certify someone as dumb as you to teach children.
Posted By: J.R.B. Re: Immigration - 11/25/14 11:09 AM
Too bad Bill wasn't a teacher in my old high school. I loved arguing the liberal ones down. It didn't do them any good to kick me out of class either because our conservative principal would send me back to give them more hell. laugh
Posted By: James M Re: Immigration - 11/25/14 03:43 PM
I got dropped at least one letter grade in college social studies class for just that reason. I had serious doubts about Johnson's "Great Society" program and stated as much. I didn't mince words back then any more than I do now.
Jim
Posted By: ed good Re: Immigration - 11/25/14 08:49 PM
give erm all a blue card and a social security number... then make failure to pay federal income taxes grounds for deportation.

then after 10 years of maintaining blue card status, they can then apply for a green card.
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Immigration - 11/25/14 11:00 PM
All illegals need to be shown the door.
Posted By: ed good Re: Immigration - 11/26/14 01:34 PM
"All illegals need to be shown the door."

yes, but which door? the one to freedom and opportunity or the one to fear and hopelessness?
Posted By: HomelessjOe Re: Immigration - 11/26/14 02:32 PM
The United States exit door.
Posted By: James M Re: Immigration - 11/26/14 04:06 PM
Bottom line:
Mexico is a third world Country and will remain so until the citizens do what is required to change their status.
I can think of no better examples of Countries that were plunged into this status than Germany and Japan at the end of WW II.
Just look at them today.
Jim
Posted By: ed good Re: Immigration - 11/26/14 04:56 PM
central america is still emerging from its decadent colonial period...if nothing else intervenes, central american society will evolve much like european society did in the 19th century...course to speed up the process, we could and should offer statehood to all of central america...just move our southern border to the panama canal... that would solve so many problems for so may people.
Posted By: Dave K Re: Immigration - 11/26/14 05:04 PM
Obamacare offers firms $3,000 incentive to hire illegals over native-born workers


http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/nov/25/obama-amnesty-obamacare-clash-businesses-have-3000/

Under the president’s new amnesty, businesses will have a $3,000-per-employee incentive to hire illegal immigrants over native-born workers because of a quirk of Obamacare.
Posted By: ed good Re: Immigration - 11/27/14 01:20 AM
illegals wana work...natives do not.
Posted By: keith Re: Immigration - 11/27/14 02:58 AM
Originally Posted By: ed good
illegals wana work...natives do not.


A lot of the illegals won't want to work either once they see that Libtard weenies like you are willing to give them Welfare, Food Stamps, free medical care, and a lot of other taxpayer funded freebies so they can stay home and make babies.

Then they will also figure out that they can pretend to have grievances against a system that gives them everything, and they can riot, loot, burn, and otherwise bite the hand that feeds them. And Libtards will make excuses for them.
© The DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com