Would like some opinions and information on this Prussian Sauer 12 ga. with 32" barrels I recently dealt for. Is it a pigeon gun?

It's not a Prussian Sauer!! When this gun was manufactured, Prussia don't exists no longer.
Sauer & Sohn, Suhl,(1945 - 1990 DDR)was expropriate by the Soviets and goes to Eckernförde, West Germany.
This side by side shotgun was manufactured with fake intentional only for export by Fortuna-Werke DDR (German Democratic Republic, the communist part of Germany) after 1950.

Looks like it was issued a serial number in circa 1906 - 1907 and was among the export wares probably for S,D&G as this was about their peak while Lindner was doing an expansion to fill orders & setting his son to begin to take the reins. Not a pigeon variant that I can see & more than likely the small crown on the flats, near the Sauer fella process marks noting assembly w/in the Sauer facility, denotes shooting performance. Anyway it lacks the other larger crown. Modell designation probably that of US retailer issued.

Beside the serial nr. and encircled S&S on the aft lug, what is the other character, 4?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Well, I recommend Wikepedia for the Prussian History, no fake ..:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preußen


Und glaube mir, GER, wer glaubt, er könnte den Leuten hier im Forum etwas vormachen, der muss früher aufstehen...

Nichts für ungut,
Gunwolf

Just how early Wolfgang?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Very, very early, Raimey! Such a knowledge here on the DGS Forum, second to none!

Cheers,
Wolfgang

Thank you gentlemen.....now, is it worth $1800 US to use shooting trap, helice, waterfowl and sporting clays? I am not a strict collector in that sense, but appreciate a well-made shooter and own other Sauers & Simsons. I had some question about the PRUSSIA stamping.
gary

The Sauer & Sohn Modell Nr. 14 being an Anson & Deeley Body Action w/ upper & lower scears is a workhorse. Does the tubeset measure 32" or 81cm? Either are very rare on an imported S&S into the U.S. of A.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

32 inches..... a well built workhorse is exactly what I want. Tell me more about the quality of this gun and if $1800 U.S. Is a fair price.

Fact is there are no proofs from the era of Prussia on this gun.
The proof marks as shown are from the era of DDR (German Democratic Republic), used since 1950 from Suhl proof house.
The mark of the eagle is the finishing proof. U under crown is the proof for scrutinize, W under crown is the proof for choked barrels.
Due this proofs, "MADE IN PRUSSIA" on this gun must be a fake, the formal abolition of Prussia occured 25.February 1947.

Zero possibility of post WWII as the tube sequence numbers are on the underside of the left tube & script g on lower rib. You might want to consult "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" by G. Wirnsberger.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

100% post WWII

>>>You might want to consult "The Standard Directory of Proof Marks" by G. Wirnsberger.<<<

This I have done, page 183, German edition.

Is this gun worth $1800 U.S.? I am interested in it as a well made shooter.

The gun is worth, anyone will pay for it, who has have it in his hands...
Have a look here on a german page of classic Sauer Guns:

http://www.altejagdwaffen.de/Langwaffen.137.0.html

@Ger ich hatte Dich gewarnt..... Du liegst falsch!

Cheers,
Gunwolf

Ger ich hatte Dich gewarnt..... Du liegst falsch!

Ganz bestimmt nicht!
Open your eys and look at the proof marks.

To see more clear, have a look at this nice russian site:

http://sauer.net.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=48#klema

On the site below there is a picture with numberd proof marks.

Google made a translation in which I marked something in bright letters.
The point is, that the DDR took over the proof marks of the German Reich.

I copied the whole article, because it's interesting:

Date rifles 1153 - Test date / shooting. (Month and year, here: November 1953). Used with 453 in 1945 - Test date / shooting (month and year are: April 1953). 6/53 - Test date / shooting (Month / Year here: June 1953). For use up to 1933 and after 1950 12/70 - Size / Length of the chamber. It was applied from 1933 to 1950. Hallmarks: a - Stamp indicating retest weapons after repairs or modifications. B - The first and only test guns smoky - black powder. in - place of the powder tests - the city of Suhl (as &#8470;13-17). 1 - Preliminary test gunpowder barrel hunting rifles to their assembly. Sign mandatory; 2 - the ultimate test of gunpowder barrel rifles after their assembly. Sign mandatory; 3 - gauge shotguns; 4 - a sign indicating that the stems are smooth (the shot); 5 - smooth trunk with chokom; 6 - has a smooth trunk Porting "paradox", 7 - rifled barrel. Intended for shooting a bullet This sign was placed on the double-barreled rifled barrel combination guns, tees and fittings; 8 - trunks nitroporohom tested. Changes in the mark of the mandatory markings and Germany after World War I: 9 - Preliminary test gunpowder barrels to their assembly, 10 - the final test of the collected gunpowder barrels. Mandatory and additional marks according to the law of Germany, 1939 .: 11 - preliminary test trunks to build black powder; 12 - the final test of the collected trunks, including smokeless powder; 12a - stigma secondary and final test of the barrel or gun black (smoke-free) powder. 13 - located in the powder tests - the city of Suhl. Marks plants in Suhl in the period 1151-1950 gg .: 14 - preliminary test trunks black powder. Sign mandatory; 15 - final test trunks after they assemblies black powder. Sign mandatory; 16 - the final test of the collected trunks smokeless powder; 17 - sign indicates that the test is conducted in the city of Suhl. Marking GDR marks, adopted in 1950: 18 - preliminary test gunpowder barrel shotguns to their assembly. Sign mandatory; 19 - final testing gunpowder barrels after their assembly, 20 - control shafts after the final test powder. Placed next to the sign of the final test; 21 - trunk nitroporohom tested. The sign may be accompanied by the word "nitro" or without it; 22 - sign means that the barrel is ported choke; 23 - gunpowder barrel passed the test after repair guns, 24 - powder testing and monitoring were carried out in the city of Suhl, 25 - the time of the test. In this case - June 1960 26 - a sign of excellent quality guns; 27 - a sign of good quality guns; 28 - a sign of an acceptable quality guns. Marks, adopted in Germany in 1951 .: 29 - preliminary test trunks to build their black powder, 30 - final test collected trunks smokeless powder, 31 - a test barrel for firing ammunition "Magnum". Badge introduced in 1973 and can replace the signs 29 and 30; 32 - test trunks and monitoring were carried out in Ekkernforde. 34 - guns made in Suhl - the category of first-class products - 1 Qualitat. 37 - Quality mark, meaning "special quality". 38 - Stamp secondary and final test barrel shotguns or black powder. Branded Zaurovskie and other common hallmarks: 39 - branded as a heron - Stork firm Sauer put on cheap trigger guns. 40 stamp in the form of a hawk firm Sauer put on cheap hammerless gun. 41-42 - J.P. Sauer & Sohn, Suhl put on the strips of their guns. 44 - the same, often put on the guns. 45 - Tests for firing weapons, which are designed for firing conventional ammunition in 1974 or stamp enhanced (special) test smokeless gun (nitro) 1945-50gg gunpowder. 46- Stamp affixed to the gun, which is designed to fire ammunition with increased gas pressure. (Magnum) 1974 47 - Testing after repair of important parts and components since 1974 Stamp 48 handicraft associations gunsmiths' Byuhag "in Suhl. 49- People's Enterprise "Telman-Werk" in Suhl. 50 - Simson & Tattoo Factory Co, Suhl - «Zimson & Co" in Suhl. 51) engraved with the inscription: DRGM - abbreviation used between 1891 and 1945. Stands - D.R.G.M. - Deutsche Reichs Gebrauchs Muster how - German state trade pattern. For example - DRGM patent number 130243 = Deutsche Reich Gebrauchmuster 1900-1906gg - Axes rib serves as an indicator of a platoon. In addition: * source Satinsky - German - (German) kleyma- znaki- markirovka- shtamps. * Source of information on German germanskim- kleymam- znakam- markirovkam- stamps can be viewed here: C. A. Buturlin "shotgun and shooting out of it," Vsekohotsoyuza, Moscow 1937 Excerpts. * Source of information on German germanskim- kleymam- znakam- markirovkam- stamps can be viewed here: EV Shteingol'd "All of a hunting rifle" - Excerpts The laws of Germany in 1891 and 1939 were defined tolerances channel sizes trunks of the same caliber. Deviation from the mean bore size is marked on each barrel of German guns, but this is beyond the scope of our subject. gun manufacturing time can be indicated in figures 9.12, 10/29, 660. In all cases, the first digit (or the first two digits) indicates the month, the last two - the year of the gun powder test. Let us examine now with inscriptions, brand marks and trademarks on the trunks, the receiver strip, the butt plate. Over the entire period of manufacture of guns "Sauer" lettering on the outer parts of guns have evolved repeatedly and form the mark, and their location. Their list is simply impossible. Typically on trunks in different places there is an inscription "IP Sauer and son" or simply "Sauer". The same signs are repeated at various locations on the receiver block. On the inside of the pads and shafts as well as the butt plate is usually stamped mark of two interlaced Latin letters S and a small Latin u, which also means "Sauer and son." On the rib cut in the official government sign the stamped brand name "Sauer" - "a man with a club." But its expensive shotguns company that signs should be put not to equate them with guns series production. On trunks, bottom, such a designation can be seen as a "12/70 mm." This means that the caliber of the gun 12, and the length of the chamber - 70 mm. As for the three interlocking rings, they represent only a brand name of certain varieties of Krupp steel. Before the Second World War the firm "Sauer" used for the manufacture of Krupp steel barrel the following names: "steel receiver," "special steel receiver", "Nirosta" (stainless steel). The trunks of the "special steel receiver" and steel "Nirosta" are usually accompanied by the sign of the three interlocking rings. But, as already mentioned, many authors, nothing special Krupp steel is not represented, and to fight gun sign "three-ring" had no effect. Guns "Sauer" with trunks of steel that had the mark "three-ring", have the same fight as and shotguns with barrels of "special steel receiver" and steel "Nirosta", but the latter are more resistant to corrosion. After the Second World War and the early years of the GDR, was put on zauerovskie gun Steel "four rings". As we mentioned in our magazine ( "Fishing and hunting", 1972, number 10, p. 33), this steel 50A supplied from the USSR to the GDR. And the "three-ring" and "a man with a baton" have disappeared from the gun "Sauer". In the GDR trademark guns made in Suhl, was "a man at the anvil", in Germany - a circle with three interwoven Latin letters S. Some hunters believe that the "three-ring" can be seen when looking at the well-pureed trunks zauerovskih guns . Well, you can see three, four, five rings, but the rings are irrelevant to the brand Krupp steel have, and can be seen in net barrels of any gun if you want to clean the barrel. Let us briefly as guns "Sauer". In the pre-war catalogs firm "Sauer" he wrote: "According to its high quality and excellent design our guns can at least be placed next to the best guns in the world." No one person with this assessment does not agree. In a long list of first-class guns, which get some of our guns with the MP index and the German "Merkel" gun "Sauer" do not fall. Does this mean that the gun "Sauer" or other rifles, not trapped in the top list of the bad? In no case. Zauerovskie guns - a rifle serial production, calculated on the mass buyer. Follow these guns (as the cheapest and most expensive) high. They invested the work of highly skilled and conscientious worker. In short, zauerovskie gun - is solidly made, good working guns. People often ask, is better or worse than the modern gun "Sauer" in comparison with pre-war. Without a shadow of a doubt we can say: the modern guns have become much better. Improved technology allowed the use of more durable steel and handle parts with greater accuracy. Increased experience of armourers, a new generation of great masters. All this taken together allows to produce guns more wear resistant, more reliable, safer and more beautiful.
Source: http://sauer.net.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=19&Itemid=48#klema

Cheers,
Gunwolf

What I find really remarkable is the different caliber: 12G on the right barrel and 16G on the left, if I see right...?

Cheers,
Gunwolf

It seems that a "machine translation" from a Russian site is not any clearer than one from a German site.
Ger,
The proof marks I see are from the period 1891-1939.The DDR adopted very similar marks, causing your confusion. The DDR used other marks that are entirely different than the 1891-1939 ones. These marks are not on the gun in question. One of these is the date stamp. DDR guns were dated, but Suhl proofed guns were not dated at the time the guns serial number indicates it was made. I believe a DDR gun would have a 70mm(2 3/4") chamber. The 12 in a circle indicates this gun has a short chamber, which is consistent with a Prussian gun. Like the others, I believe this is a proper Prussian gun.
Gunwolf
I noticed that difference also, but it looked like an 18 to me. The bore of both tubes was marked 13/1, which is common for 12ga guns.
Mike

this gun was recently sold by guns international #100688113 it has more cosmetic pictures of the gun maybe this would give a clue to its date of manuf. it is listed as a model 40. just trying to help.

Thanks Mike, of course you are right with the sites.. What about the two different caliber markings?

Cheers,
Gunwolf

>>>The proof marks I see are from the period 1891-1939.The DDR adopted very similar marks, causing your confusion.<<<
No sir, when you compare the proof marks from the period 1891 - 1939 with the DDR marks than you can see the crown and the letters are different in form.
I have compared the shown marks with the proof marks on my Nimrod side by side shotgun, manufactured 1921 in Suhl and I'm absolutely shure this gun in question was manufactured in DDR after WWII by Ernst Thälmann Werke, formerly Fortuna Werke and formerly Sauer & Sohn. This factory was manufacturing Sauer & Sohn armory until end of 1960th and Sauer & Sohn, Eckernförde, Western Germany stand in action against and win at least.
I think the mark "MADE IN PRUSSIA" was made by the importer, to get a higher price, never seen in Germany.

What may this be (red ring)?




Cheers,
Gunwolf

What about the two different caliber markings?
Somebody has manipulated this, but not possible when you have a look on system and barrels.

Inside the red ring not clearly enough, but may be letter S inside a rounded triangle, stands for "Sonderqualität". If it's true than another proof for Made in DDR.

The circle looks distorted so it is either some odd distortion or an overstamp as there is a 2 in there.

Cheer,

Raimey
rse

Also the term NITRO or similar isn't present so pre-1912.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Jeeez....this turned into a pissing contest; the gun is coming to me next week and I'm going to have a lot of fun with it. I appreciate all the input. Where today can you buy a contemporary sxs of that obvious quality for $1800?

Gunwolf
Down here in the south, we have a word for it being marked with two calibers, but I don't think I can say it in mixed company. In the Army it would be "FUBAR".
GER
The "S" in the red circle above looks like the typical S&S in an oval, not clearly stamped.
Mike

these are great guns.i don't think i have seen a anson pattern on a GDR gun GDR has overhanging sear.i have a catalog with all the ernst thalmann-werk guns.fortuna,buhag,wolf,simson,hubertus,sauer,merkel.i think you have a great gun.and for 1800 you can get something from turkey.

and raimey is correct this gun has intercepting sears.these guns are really high quality guns.i have worked on a few and in side are very nicely fit and finished.i would be very happy with that gun

@Mike: I asked Wikepedia and got the right answer..
If iI read it right, it has possible german origin: "Furchtbar" but you "Amis" made something indecent out of it...

The gun is quite nice, and I'm pretty sure, it was not made in GDR. Especially nice are the long barrels. Enjoy it!

Cheers,
Gunwolf

Think you are right, Raimey, the riddle is solved! No FUBAR, Mike!

Cheers,
Wolfgang

Gary:

This platform is the epitome of a boxlock platform. In my opinion, the only more proper A&D Body Action platform would have been finished by Lindner. & echoing M-4's opinion, the same mechanics may have contributed similar effort. I hasten to say you got in on the lower end of it's realized value. Hopefully when it arrives you can chalk the all the marks & pleasure us with additional images.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

And again, right off I don't recall see a non-inland/destined for export Sauer tubeset that was 32" so it would be really rare. But let me look.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

It is not a Modell Nr. 40 but possibly a Modell Nr. 3, special order w/ long tubes.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Gunwolf,

I'm not sure if the Wikepedia version is correct. If you are standing in the blast zone of a nuclear device, you are "FUBAR"; you don't have a problem, you are part of the problem.

I guess the over stamping is either the mistake, or caused by the mistake. Neither takes away from the gun.
Mike

>>>And the word "Made in Prussia" is an export give-away and might indicate a later proof date.<<<

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Gentlemen: I thought the 1890 McKinley Tariff Act, which came into force in 1891-2, required the single name of the originating country / autonomous region to be stamped on imported products from abroad (e.g. "Germany," "Nippon," etc.). While we do see "Made in Prussia" stamped on the action body sides of some Charles Daly guns, or alternatively the name of the autonomous region, such as "Thuringia" after "Charles Daly" earlier located there too, significantly we do not find the "Made in ..." stamp applied to the water-table until after mid-1921, when U.S. customs bureau regulations changed and the "Made in [such and such country]" stamp was thereafter required. I do not believe the former or latter stamp is applied specifically to the water-table before the aforesaid dates of requirement.

Moreover, if we believe the subject gun is of 'Prussian Era' manufacture / or then finished, the question begged is: Which era is that of which we speak? Since the question has also arisen concerning the existence or longevity of a political entity or state called Prussia, we will briefly address it. In November 1918, the petty monarchies were abolished and the nobility lost its political power during the German Revolution of 1918-19. The Kingdom of Prussia was consequently abolished to form a republic, the Free State of Prussia, a state of Germany from 1918 until 1933. From 1933, Prussia lost its independence as a result of an internal coup, when the Nazi regime successfully established its "Gleichschaltung" laws in pursuit of a unified state. With the defeat of the Nazi regime ending the Second World War, the division of Germany into allied-occupation zones and the separation of its territories east of the Oder–Neisse line, which were incorporated into Poland and the Soviet Union, the State of Prussia ceased to exist in 1945 (It was formally liquidated by the Allied Control Council in February, 1947). So we are addressing many possible decades; and accordingly, it is likelier the gun was manufactured sometime prior to the end of Prussia's existence as a state, though necessarily after 1921.

What all this treating of history means is that the subject gun is of post-1921 manufacture, and thus is not a Lindner-finished gun or a product of the Golden Age, when the most sought-after Prussian-made Charles Daly / H. A. Lindner-finished guns were completed.


Regards,

Edwardian

Fellas:

Keep it up & someone is going to get their monocle smashed as this is your shot across the bow. It does not have have a Nitro stamp & does not wear a post 9/1923 date stamp. So unless you contact Jim Cate & P.O. Haggards of Sweden & they say otherwise, I might be inclined to listen. It was issued a serial number in the early 1900s and could have been completed some 10 years later but when you get to late 1923, it will wear a proof date & a Nitro stamp unless it was deemed to travel to a country that did not have a proof facility. There are some 125xxx that were completed late 1920s but all this getting wound around the axle on Made in Prussia is pretty much irrelevant to the date of issue nor of completion; grasping at straws one might say. Now, I like a good rock throwing contest as well as any one & I'm giving you fair warning.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Gentlemen: I do think this is a Prussian-made, J. P. Sauer & Son gun (Would the manufacturer's name-stamp be in-part "Sohn" rather than "Son" if not intended for export, I wonder?) because there is every indication it is exactly that. We are agreed on that point. My above comments dealt with the indisputable fact that the subject gun significantly bears the "Made in Prussia" stamp on its water-table and not on the sides of the action body as some earlier lower grades evince, which would indicate that it was imported post-mid-1921 into the United States due to the required presence of the stamp as worded after that date by U.S. customs regulations. Otherwise, that particular wording for the country of origin would not be present on the water-table. That the stamp is impressed into the water-table of the subject gun is telling. I am unaware of examples that would inform me such is not the case, or that such a stamp ("Made in" such and such country) was present on the water-table of U.S.-imported guns prior to mid-1921. If there are contradicting examples of that very language being present on an import's water-table prior to 1921, I would very much like to know of it / them.

We will want to keep in mind that we are all conjecturing on this matter, in order to benefit the questioner, presumably, as well as add to our knowledge base overall. To me, the idea behind this means of worldwide communication is to share and thereby gain knowledge, present ideas and voice opinions civilly, not overbear, irritate the participants, or attempt to dissuade them from participating altogether.

That the subject gun may have been manufactured before 1912, in accordance with the decipherment of certain proof marks and other indicia present, is not in question. Although, because of the presence of the post-1921 stamp on the water-table, such might also suggest it was inventoried for some time and subsequently completed before being exported from Germany to the United States. (Would the gun need to again be proofed, say post-1923, before being exported to a non-proof country like the U.S., is unknown to me without performing more research--Though somehow I doubt it.) Because it may have been in inventory and, therefore, would neither have been available to be finished contemporaneously by H. A. Lindner nor its completion supervised by him prior to its later exportation to the United States, I posited that this gun was not a 'Golden Age' gun, which would seem a logical and reasonable assertion. Nor is the assertion contradicted by the foregoing dating indicators. As well, I do not recall remarking the presence of Lindner proprietary marks or persuasively Lindner-defining characteristics anywhere.

It was not and is not uncommon today for English or the German / Prussian gunmakers or manufacturers to inventory guns for later completion, sometimes for many years, or to await orders for particular types of guns before their completion, which awaited orders may take years before they are received. One type of sporting gun awaiting an order may have been that for a gun with an unusually or even uniquely long barrel, such as that affixed to the subject gun (I think the 32-inch barrels were not intended for pigeon but for wildfowling.). I could give a number of examples based on my own collection of this business practice, but as everyone here knows of the practice, it is hardly necessary to further elaborate.

Whether the subject gun was made before some date or touched by the master's hand is of little matter in terms of the ultimate enjoyment of this gun by its eventual owner. Provenance is just an additive to the appreciation of a particular gun, but not a necessary. And here is an excellent vintage gun in need of purchase and for use as intended. I wholeheartedly wish the buyer well and good sport.


Regards to all,

Edwardian

In reference to the idea that 'Made In Prussia' is only present on the watertable of guns imported post 1921.

The pic below is the watertable of a Sauer Daly 16 with a 'Made In Prussia' stamp on it.

I believe the serial number places the gun's manufacture circa 1904 per the serial number list posted earlier in this thread. The gun lacks any nitro proof marks (and does not have the word 'nitro' stamped on it). Also, there is no date of proof stamped on the gun. The usual 'U' 'W' 'S' proof marks are present on the barrel flats.

The original owner lived in Grand Rapids, Michigan for many years. His initials and the inscription 'GR Mich' are on the initial shield which is still present in the buttstock. Significantly, he moved to Pensacola Fl in 1916 and lived there continuously until his death in 1930.

I think that all of this would indicate pretty strongly the gun was imported prior to 1916 when the original owner was still residing in Grand Rapids. The gun never went back to Michigan, remaining in Florida with a local family for many years, and then on to Atlanta, GA with a descendant of that family, which is where I purchased it last year.

I appreciate all the comments and input on this thread. I have a couple of final questions as I have not yet completely pushed the button on this deal.
1. right side of receiver - shouldn't the lock screw be aligned with the hinge pin screw head? All others are.
2. the action bottom screw head seems to be slightly burred...1 & 2 seems to indicate someone has been inside the gun; hidden warts on this one perhaps?
3. shouldn't a gun of this era have been case hardened instead of blued?
I certainly appreciate any feedback and opinions on these questions.

GaryW,
Yes, the locking screw should be aligned, with the axis of the gun. What you called a "hinge pin screw head" is actually a cover plate for the hinge pin. The locking screw may just need tightening, or it may have been removed and placed in a different location. This may or may not indicate the hinge pin was replaced( to put the gun back "on face"). As far as the gun having been apart; it is well over 100 years old, and I would think it would be very unusual, if it had not been taken apart in it's lifetime. Yes it could have "warts" inside, but "warts" could have been cured in the process, also. As far as the finish is concerned, this would have been whatever was ordered by the importer. If you can find the importers adverts., you might find them helpful.
Regarding the locking screws(and others), they are usually marked on the end, to indicate which side of the action they belong on.
Mike

GaryW if you examine the locking screws they both are miss aligned and seem to stick out on the front side, I would bet they are swapped. one appears to be burred also.

Fellers, what y'all are calling locking screws are really the pins for the cocking arms, having nothing to do with the hinge pin.

Joe,
I think you are correct, but my comment above still holds true, and James's also.
Mike

You THINK Joe is correct????
NEVER known him to be incorrect
Right Gary?? You gonna buy this relic or NOT
Bring it next Tuesday
Mike

Professor Wood is never wrong about good shotguns.....
However, he is not perfect; as evidenced by his preference
for cheap, skinny cigars fitted with plastic mouthpieces.
He does occasionally indulge in a good Macanudo or Monte Cristo...when I give him one and let him pose with my gun.
I retracted my offer on the Sauer and it is probably back on Guns International for anyone who might be interested in it.
Stay tuned for the next chapter of "Acquiring pre-war German shotguns"...coming in June.

It seems like one of you is wrong about other things. One of you is wearing a Texas A&M cap, in public, no less; and the other one is associating with someone that would make that mistake.
WAR EAGLE!
Mike

I heard somewhere that them east Alabama boys ain't above ground sluicing a covey of quail on a rainy day or potting a dove off a limb.......LOL

check your PM War Eagle.......

It's hard to find a covey any more, all the old cotton fields have been planted in pine tree "orchards". The last dove shoot I went to, I shot a groundhog. It made a good gumbo for the deer camp( waste not, want not). I answered the PM.
Mike

My nephew has a ten ga. Sauer which is roughly of the same time frame as this gun==it too has the Prussia stamping in English. It's barrels are 30 inches, however.

Did you obtain any confirmation of value?
Bo (broockies)

You will pardon my jumping in without proper introduction, Wolfgang, but I'm in need of some help in identifying a 16 ga. Sauer & Sohn double from about 1898 (ser. # 64xxx), as I'm told. Question: is this gun safe to use with modern shells? There are no Nitro proof(s) in evidence.
I'm aware that the chambers are short of the current 2.75" length, but does this pose any threat to the gun/shooter?
I have several pictures I can email, if these would be of any value.
Thank you , in advance!
Bo (broockies)

Hi;
Did anyone send a confirmation of the $1,800 price?
BoBroock

Probably the gun is safe, but this depends on the condition of all parts. In Germany I would in each case go to the proofhouse for a new proof!! Otherwise I would not shoot modern shells. The chambers of these old guns normally are 65 mm, so you never may shoot 70mm cartridges, but only 65 or 67,5mm!

Cheers,
Gunwolf

Thanks, Wolfgang.
Where in the world do I find 65 or 67.5 16 ga. shells??

Bo

Same as 2 9/16

Look up Polywad in or near Macon, Georgia, and ask about their "Vintager" 2 1/2" low pressure loads.. Just exactly what you are looking for. They give near full velocity with much lower pressure curves, and the birds will never know the difference. Don't shoot modern WalMart shells in it.

RST?

I'm impressed at how many knowledgable gun "nuts" take the time to share so
much information with those of us who know almost nothing!
I've determined to buy the Sauer double in question. Raimey has confirmed it's
date thru his Russian Table (1897) and that it's a prussian. I bought it in spite
of the gauge (16) and 2.5" chambers because of it's exquisite relief engraving -
all surfaces, including full side plates - of animals and birds. It's a "doll's-head" receiver (not the most desirable, I gather), but in remarkably good shape for
it's age.
I'd love to share pictures of the gun on this website, but I haven't a clue how to do this. Maybe someone out there can lead me thru it.
BoBroock

I'm impressed at how many knowledgable gun "nuts" take the time to share so
much information with those of us who know almost nothing!
I've determined to buy the Sauer double in question. Raimey has confirmed it's
date thru his Russian Table (1897) and that it's a prussian. I bought it (in spite
of the gauge (16) and 2.5" chambers) because of it's exquisite relief engraving -
all surfaces, including full side plates - of animals and birds. It's a "doll's-head" receiver (not the most desirable, I gather), but in remarkably good shape for
it's age.
I'd love to share pictures of the gun on this website, but I haven't a clue how to do this. Maybe someone out there can lead me thru it.
BoBroock

I cannot see anything wrong with caliber 16!In Germany and other European countries it always was quite common.I'm sure you can get the 67,5mm shells also in the USA. Enjoy your Gun!

Wolfgang

I have reservations that anyone but Sauer or their sub performed the tap, tap, tap on the locks. DRGM 17913 around clockhand indicators. I seem to recall that protection was filed for in the early 1890s?






Disk set strikers? Also Z mechanic was more than likely the System fella/action guy.


Selbstspanner - System J.P Sauer & Sohn


Papp. 16-65, 4,75 S.P.(Dram Eq. Powder), 28,5 grammes lead shot


Nicht Für Kugel w/ Latin I(surmounted by a dot)


Multiple Sauer Wildmann & Club process or quality mark stamps.

Images from another thread.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Nothing WRONG with 16 ga., Wolfgang; I simply find 20 ga. much more versatile
in the US: lighter weight, and with 3"" chambers, plenty bird coverage for all but
large Ducks. In the US, 16 ga. is passé, I'm afraid, tho' it USED to be popular here
50 years or more ago.

Where would I look for a decent, european, used sxs hard gun case?
Bo

Wolfgang;
Where might i look for a decent, used Euro take-down hard gun case?
Any web-sited Sellers of something like this?

BoBroock

Wolfgang;
Where might i look for a decent, used Euro take-down hard gun case?
Any web-sited Sellers of something like this?

BoBroock

Bo, I'm not quite sure, but I think, hard gun cases were not common in Germany.
More in use were gun sleeves and the so called "Schinkenkoffer" or "leg of mouton" from hard leather, also for take down guns. This one on E-Gn is typically:

Schinkenkoffer E-Gun

or this one, two parts:

Schinkenkoffer two parts

This one of softer but thick leather is my own:

Soft take down slip

The hard gun case is more british, I think, but perhaps I'm wrong.

Cheers,
Wolfgang