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Posted By: Grouse Guy Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 03/11/17 02:20 AM
I've just purchased a "pair" of Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 rifles in 6.5X54. Both are half-stocks, and are not take-down.

The first rifle appears near-factory, but for a carved foreend. The second rifle has a left-hand cheekpiece, and a shortened LOP but the stock appears otherwise factory. The second also has a period claw-mount Zeiss scope. The two rifles have four digit serial numbers, sequential.

Interestingly the initial badge on the second rifle also displays a Crown appearing to be that of a prince.

Does anybody know how I could find out more about this pair?

Thanks,
GG
Without a set of good photos including all the markings, hardly. Then I would contact everybody that put these markings on: manufacturer, proof house (or houses), possible retailer. I would also try to find and contact specialists that research nobles; Princes are far less common than say Freiherrs so you have a fair chance there.

With kind regards,
Jani
Hello Jani:

I appreciate the suggestions and encouragement.

I'll try to pull one or both stocks and get some decent photos of markings.

I'm a little surprised by your suggestion that the rifles may have been proofed in multiple proof houses. Was this customary for the day if guns moving across multiple jurisdictions?

I also will attempt to find someone who researches nobles. Perhaps not a lot of those on this side of the pond!

Regards
GG
Hello Jani and others:

Here is a link to the photos of one of the M-S markings.

Thanks for any details you can provide to me from them....

Regards,
GG

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/0vtcymcwj8p3l2h/AACY16L1dDAV_nnyBo3azg3Ka?dl=0
Serial number 5633, proofed in 1910, Vienna Proof House.
I hope that the PL under closed crown (Prinz Leopold? - just a wild guess) will be dechiphered by another member who is much more versed in this matters than Yours Truly.

With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: Ger Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 03/14/17 10:03 AM
C 6.5 = caliber 6,5mm,
21733.10. = Protocol-No. 21733 Vienna proof house from 1910.
5633 = Serial-No.
The crown shows a "Fürstenkrone" (crown of a first), therefore Prinz Leopold isn't possible. My opinion is "Fürst von Lobkowicz" but not certain.
You can ask the proof house Vienna about the history regarding the protocol-no.
mailto:office-wien@beschussamt.gv.at?subject=Beschussamt Wien
https://www.bmwfw.gv.at/TechnikUndVermes...samt%20Wien.pdf
Here is a possibility

Jaroslav Aloys Franz Kungund Emanuel Maria 11. Fürst von Lobkowitz
Birthdate: March 26, 1877 (76)
Birthplace: Konopischt,,,,,
Death: Died October 24, 1953 in Plzensky Kraj, CZECH REPUBLIC

He is of the correct era, and there are game trophies in the family home attributed to him by his son Johannes Lobkowitz.
Posted By: Ger Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 03/14/17 02:32 PM
My opinion is that the initial shows FZL, than it's Ferdinand Zdenko Maria Fürst von Lobkowitz, born January 23,1858 in Prague,
married in Vienna, died December 22, 1938
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 03/14/17 02:38 PM
Where do you see the third letter?

Cheers,
Gunwolf
Posted By: Ger Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 03/14/17 04:38 PM
In the middle the F , to the left Z, to the right L, but not certain.
I was looking at it some more, but I still see PL.

With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: Kutter Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 03/14/17 06:09 PM
PL
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 03/14/17 07:34 PM
Well, it is a Fürstenkrone. What you should have in mind is, that the Nobility normally doesn't use their title (i.e. Prince) for their personal monogram. They only use for example W.L. for Wenzel Liechtenstein or Wenzel Lobkowitz. These are two of only three existing Austrian Fürsten families whos name begins with "L". 1. Liechtenstein, 2. Lobkowitz, 3. Lubomirski and 4. Lamberg. So, if the owner of the Mannlicher was an Austrian, he was a member of one of these four families. If he or her(!) was a german, there is another alternative, the Lippe family.

Now we have to find a member of one of these families with it's prename starting with a "P" who lived about the turn of the 19th to 20th century. And this is the point, where the difficulties begin....

I cannot really find a male who fits. But looking at the post, I see that Grouse Guy speaks about a shortened LOP, so we have to think about a woman as well. Of course in those times it was unusual, but in nobel families it was not impossible.

Let's go on with our search!

Cheers,
Gunwolf
Gunwolf:

This is a very helpful narrowing of the search for the original owners of this rifle pair.

We are thinking alike that this may be a gun built for use by a woman. But it doesn't explain why the man-sized gun of the pair lacks a Furstenkrone (it has no initial badge at all, just an adjacent serial number). Is it possible the woman was nobility and the man was not?

The smaller gun also has a left-hand cheek piece and a clip-on ambidextrous comb for use with the scope. A very unusual piece in many ways.

Thanks for your searching and information.

Sincerely,
GrouseGuy
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 03/14/17 09:43 PM
GrouseGuy, I have a very vague idea as follows:

Paula von Lamberg (21. September 1887 - 4.September 1927) was an Austrian Reichsgräfin, what means she had the same crown as a Fürst. Paula was an unusal woman and one of the first female ski jumpers of her time. She hold a world record in jumping (22m). Beside this, she loved Car Racing and so we can imagine, she was also able to shoot(only a guess). She married Franz Valentin Graf Schlik, but died only some months after her marriage during a Moto-sidecar racing. Unfortunately I don't know, if she was a lefthander.
To your question: If a Princess marries a Graf or a common man, she nevertheless always stays a princess!

Found more about Paula on wikipedia:

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paula_von_Lamberg

and here in english:

https://www.kitzbuehel.com/en/legends/legends-from-kitz/paula-lamberg

As I said, it's only a wild guess, but I think I would like it, if she was the owner of your gun. smile

Cheers,
Gunwolf
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 03/14/17 09:58 PM
GrouseGuy, are you sure the two rifles always belonged together? Why?

Cheers,
Gunwolf
Serial numbers xxxx and xxxX.
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 03/14/17 10:57 PM
OK, I understand.

Thanks,
Gunwolf
Gunwolf:

I continue to believe the strongest likelihood is that these did belong to Countess Paula von Lamberg. Did you know that Lamberg Castle is located at Steyr? I've made an inquiry with the archivist there for more information about her activities, photographs, etc.
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 04/07/17 12:30 AM
Grouse Guy, that sounds interesting! Please keep us informed!
Cheers,Gunwolf
Posted By: felix Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 04/07/17 12:17 PM
to narrow the list by a view into Springer's archive:
The Lubomirski aristo-clan has been Springer's biggest customer,
there are 9 different prenames, but NONE starting with P.
The Liechtenstein aristos (Afro hunters from Sternberk/Moravia!)
have been as well big customers, 7 different prenames
but NONE with P.
Felix Neuberger
Felix:

Thank you for the eliminations. But I am not familiar with Springer's archive. What is this?

Thanks,

GG
Posted By: Kutter Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 04/09/17 01:43 AM
My second look, I'd have to say TL instead of PL.
Not an awful lot of difference in the loops in the right vs left side of the top bar of the left letter for a P,
Just enough to allow intertwine of the L stem. Then the L skip loops at the bottom to be able to intertwine with the T and cover area w/o taking one large bold sweeping loop instead to do it.

No middle flag on the T for it to be an F,, unless I'm not seeing that too!,,just the same fancy leaf accent cut on both verticle stems of the letters.

That's tonite's verdict and only one drink in.
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 04/24/17 02:27 PM
I would disagree, because the upper part of th left "P" is absolut symetric and both ends down. If you look at some examples of cursiv letters, you will see, that this is never the case with a "T". Mostly the right upper part of a "T" is not going down.

Cheers,
Gunwolf
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 04/24/17 02:29 PM
Felix, would you be able to check, if there is a member of the Schlik family in the archives, especially of course Franz Valentin Graf Schlik, the husband of Paula...?

Thanks,
Gunwolf
Posted By: Kutter Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 04/24/17 05:12 PM
Artistic license in play I believe. Fitting 2 letters into an oval shape and wanting the result to look balanced.
The text book of lettering styles goes under the bench pretty much. They turn into pieces of art themselves.
You twist and turn them as you please to make them fit and still retain grace and flow. The strict script L doesn't have a double skip loop at the bottom either but they put one there to balance, connect and fill the space.
I'll still go w/the T but as with many of these it can be difficult to deciper. You may be right though.
Posted By: felix Re: Mannlicher-Schoenauer 1903 pair- RH LH - 04/24/17 06:15 PM
To Gunwolf:
No Schlik-entry found.
to Grouse Guy:
Springer and Kalezky were the leading Austrian gunmakers
from the late 18xx to WW II.
Springers archive/customer record is a "Who is who" of
Central/East European aristo-clan/grand-bourgoisie.
I thought 2 Mannlicher would be just another item
within the household listings of their estates.
But nothing found which could be a answer.
(Kalezky's record do not exist)
Sorry
Felix Neuberger
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