I am new to forum and double rifles so forgive the inexperience. I am possibly looking to purchase a Johann Springer back action hammer gun in 450 BPE. It was made about 1904 and is in good original condition. What do you think of the Austrian quality of rifles as compared to their British counterparts.
Hands down, an Austro-Hungarian offering is on par, or superior, to any piece of shrapnel one would acquire from the little British Isles. And probably @ 1/3 the cost too. With a diet of proper ammo, it should last a couple more lifetimes, with minimal tweaking.
Cheers,
Raimey
rse
To Roger O
Please can you let know the 4-digit serial nr, probably in the
9xxx range.
Kind regards
Felix Neuberger
Felix, Thank you for the reply. I really enjoyed your article in DGJ in Summer of 97. Its what got me started on a Springer. The one I am considering belongs to a good friend who is really into double rifles. The serial # is 9252 and from your article is approx. circa 1904. It has really good case coloring, nice wood with some dings in the cheekpice and some gouges in the checkering by the grip cap. Other than that it is very nice. Used but not abused, and all original. The barrels are 28 with good rifleing. It is cased with a Springer low power scope, nipple wrench, stuck case extractor, and snap caps. It is sighted in at 50 yds. w/2 groups using 4198. The only thing that worries me is that it is regulated with Sierra 300 gn. 4255 jacketed bullets. The price is in the 12K neighborhood.
Thank you for the response. I know SxS shotguns very well and own many, mostly English and Scottish. When it comes to double rifles and getting them to regulate, I am far out of my element. Fortunately, this one is regulated but instead of using 458 diameter bullets this is somewhere in the 4255.
The serial nr 9252 is probably a misspelling.
According their records 9252 has been
"Hammerlessflinte cal 12" delivered "26.9.1902" to
"Riedenau".
I have counted a total of 19 double rifles in 450K
in their records within the vicinity to this 9252.
Besides others also 2 delivered to the
imperial "chamber" (household).
The nearest number to your 9252 are
either 9282 or 9352.
The serial nr is normally threefold, on the
triggertang, the action body and on the barrelflats.
Recommend you to check.
The 2 cartridge gurus of Vienna are gone since long,
one in 2009, the other one late 199x. (My Kalezky
catalogues came from the second one.)
Cheers
Felix Neuberger
Felix, Thank you for the reply. The number should have been 9352. Do I have a concern with the 4255 bullet and jacketed versus 458.
Thank you again.
Best regards
Springer built wonderful guns, beautifully fit and finished with very nice styling as well.
The market is way down on double rifles. 12k would be top money in today's market. It would need to be truly exceptional both in grade and condition to bring that money in my mind.
Good luck with it!
Steve
Lets clarify piecemeal-wise and I am NOT an expert
on old cartridges
1. 9352 has been delivered 24.11.1903 to
"Prinz .inar PackaTaussoum"
as a "Doppelstutzen 450k".
(The dot could be "C", above is the best
of my deciphering ...)
2. I looked into their catalogue post-1908.
Page 31: This is probably either
their model 57a at 550 Crown or
model 58a at 700 Crown
The b-models would be hammerless.
Both models were available in 450k, "k" means
kurz (short).
3.Page 74:
Zentralfeuer-Kugelpatronen / loaded with black-powder
and lead-bullet
Kaliber 450: 11.6 mm and length of the short one in 65 mm.
4. Re price: A priori, I am biased, so
I can not/will not do any price assessment.
My daughter graduated in national economy.
In one of her scripts: I did read and kept in mind
that "Goods and Services" move from low-price countries
to high-price countries.
...
A 20-year Vertical of Chateau Petrus vintages - the most
expensive red Bordeaux - has a value at the Harrods
wineshop in London, it his no value with the shepherd
in the Hungarian Hortobagy puszta, nor with the indigenous
moose guide on the Kamtschatka peninsula.
..
Prices are a question of social perception
and the prevailing price-levels in the country.
I consider US a high-price-country.
I recommend you to seek the advice from a knowlegdeable
man within the collector fraternity near you or
a gunsmith of your trust.
....
Hallowell had a pair of Springer hareguns on offer,
he started at 28 k$, then down to 24 k$ and I
understand it finally sold for 20 k$.
All barrels full choked, the weaponry for the
harebattles in Central and Eastern Europe of bygone
days.
Cheers
Felix Neuberger
Roger O,
It is a great advantage to know a load that will "shoot" in the rifle. On the other hand, considering when the gun was made, it is not possible that any Sierra bullet was used in the original regulation. You can very well try to find a different load that will "shoot"( maybe at 100 meters), while having an acceptable load in your "back pocket".
Mike
Steve,
Thank you for the reply. I need all the info. I can get on double rifles. From the prices I have seen, 12k does not seem too high for a double rifle. Of course, I am looking at dealer prices. Did you notice in my orig. post that it included a fitted case, springer scope with quick detachable mounts, and some other accessories?
I am used to paying almost that much for some of my English SxS shotguns, so it didn't seem high.
Mike,
Thanks again for the info. The rifle originally belonged to a good friend and he could never get it regulated. It was sold to another of my friends who has it now and he finally got it to regulate with the Sierra 4255 (45 Colt) jacketed bullets.
Roger,
I have not seen the gun but keep a few things in mind when it comes to value on a double rifle.
Caliber is extremely important, black powder rifles commanding far less on market than their nitro counterparts. The .450 BPE is a wonderful round but the number of buyers is far less than for a Nitro gun. Nitro guns in .450 are real dangerous game guns, the bpe version is more suited to thin skinned game. Nothing wrong with a .450 BPE, I just bought one myself, just realize the difference on the market.
Continental guns do not bring near what English guns do money wise. Just way less buyers. That means as a buyer you get more for your money. A good thing but keep in mind you do want to paying English gun prices.
Configuration is important, scoped back action hammer BPE rifles are a bit of an oddity. You sure do not see many. Lots of us are getting older and could utilize a scope but to be honest I think it puts off many buyers.
Lastly, it is a buyers market.
Pictures could change my mind. Certain guns bring a premium, this could be one of those.
Steve
Steve,
Thanks for the reply. You make some very good and valuable points.
After doing some more checking I find out that the chamber/ bore was originally 65mm but was opened up to 80mm so that a 450 case would fit.
Felix,
I want to thank you for your help and advice. With the info. you gave me I did some checking and found out that the first owner that could not get it to shoot (65mm) chamber/throat had it opened up to 80mm so that it would accept a 450 case!
Thank you again for sharing your time and expertise.
To Roger O
Please can you let me know your e-mail via a PM
Cheers
Felix Neuberger
If the bullet is .4255" then it is VERY close to the .423" (10.75 mm) that is employed in the .404 Jeffery. There are a number of currently available bullets for the .404 Jeffery... Hornady, Swift, Nosler, Northfork, Hawk, and the Weldcore bullets from Aussie Land.
Is this the case?
Just a comment on Springer guns, I have seen several over the years and find them much more British styled then typical Continental guns.
Here is one that was for sale earlier this year.
http://www.champlinarms.com/Default.aspx...&GunID=3102
I think it was supposed to be .4525 instead of .4255, It is a 450, nicht wahr?