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Posted By: ENM JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 12/31/18 05:56 PM
Thank you for adding me to the forum! This is my first post so please be patient if I mess up the photos. This is my father-in-laws shotgun. He got it somewhere many years ago. He bought it as you see it and never fired it. Too pretty I guess. I have used the forum posts here to help identify some of the symbols on the gun. I still cannot figure out grade or age or value. Can anyone here help with this beautiful shotgun? If not can someone direct me to someone who can? Thank you so much and Happy New Year!



Posted By: Der Ami Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 12/31/18 08:39 PM
ENM,
First off, the gun was marketed by Otto Bock, as you said and it is plainly so marked. I don't believe it is a JP Sauer, however. There is a marking on the rib, partially hidden by the edge of the photo, that seems to be BSW. This would be "Berliner Schuler Werks", which was one of the names Simmons used while they were desperately trying to avoid the NAZIs taking over their company. It was a Jewish family owned company during a time it was becoming more and more difficult to be Jewish in Germany. Also there was residual resentment by other manufacturers because Simmons was allowed to work after WW1 for the German Army. I believe the S on 3 triangles was their logo. It was proofed in Suhl, during July 1936( 736). The 12 in a circle, over 70 mm, means it is 12 ga, with 2 3/4 " chambers. Since the standard German chamber was shorter than this in 1936, the gun may have been made for export to the US( not positive). The crown U under the eagle is the mark for a View proof, after a definitive proof. This view proof amounts to a detailed inspection, including verification of dimensions. The 13/1 is the diameter of the bore, ahead of the chamber, expressed in gauge measurement. This equates to about 18.26mm. The crown W, means the barrel is choked, but the amount of constriction in not shown. The Nitro means it was nitro proofed( ie smokeless powder). There are several other marks that I can't make out. If crown S is included( and it should be), this means it was proofed to fire shot. It has fluid steel( Fluss Stahl) barrels. The steel company was "cut off" by the edge of the photo, but was often Krupp. It has cocking indicators , interrupting sears, and better than the basic engraving. I am not up on the "grades and models", so I won't be of much help in that regard. JP Sauers are very fine guns, but I believe this Simmons is much more interesting, due to the history. The Simmons family was recently able to regain ownership of the company. I hope you find this helpful.
Mike
Posted By: ENM Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 12/31/18 09:57 PM
Thanks Mike here are a couple more pics of the gun showing the rest of the barrel marking and the bottom of the receiver. Let me know your thoughts, Ed

Posted By: ellenbr Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 12/31/18 10:29 PM
Ford: that is Berlin-Suhler Waffen-Und Fahrzeugwerke & Simson. Anyway, I believe it to be a Kerner-Anson action.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Der Ami Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 12/31/18 10:41 PM
Raimey,
Of course you are right about BSW, I didn't take the time to look it up. Unless I missed it again, Emil Kerner added an interrupting sear to the Anson and Deeley action, so I believe we are thinking of the same thing.

ENM,
With the exception of the precise name of BSW, the additional photos verify my guesses.
Mike
Posted By: Dilly541 Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 01/01/19 01:58 AM
Beutiful looking gun
Posted By: ellenbr Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 01/01/19 12:45 PM
Could you pleasure us with a few more images of the area forward of the flats further up on the tubes, additional area of the water-table & the area between the strikers?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ENM Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 01/01/19 02:23 PM
Here you go Raimey, please forgive the bugs in the pic. It is the only 2 pics I have at the moment but I think they show what you need. Ed

Posted By: ellenbr Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 01/01/19 02:51 PM
Many thanks for the effort. Sideclips or wings and what looks like a hidden Greener Crossbolt, or does it protrude when the toplever is activated? Also, is that a screw in bottom of the extension / fastener well?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ENM Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 01/01/19 03:08 PM
sorry Raimey without the gun in front of me I cannot remember about the bolt or if that is a screw. I may see the gun soon but not for a few days. Keep watching as I will post the answers as soon as I find out. So with all this being told from previous posts we still don’t know a grade. There has to be something I am missing. Any way for me to contact Simson?
Posted By: SKB Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 01/01/19 03:21 PM
The screw is a keeper for the ejectors/extractors.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 01/01/19 03:22 PM
There are BSW & Simson catalogues, which are the only means of determining a modell seeing the concerns are defunct & the families are long gone. I'll check to see what I might have.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 01/01/19 03:27 PM
Per the Simson catalogue, which would be pre-BSW, it would be a Modell Nr. 73 or 74. Does it have an automatic safety and what are the tube lengths?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 01/01/19 03:28 PM
Originally Posted By: SKB
The screw is a keeper for the ejectors/extractors.


What I am viewing is the doll's head well....

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: SKB Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 01/01/19 03:35 PM
Originally Posted By: ellenbr
Originally Posted By: SKB
The screw is a keeper for the ejectors/extractors.


What I am viewing is the doll's head well....

Cheers,

Raimey
rse


If you are referring to the screw in the slot on the bottom side of the top rib extension, below and behind the hole for the Greener bolt, then that is indeed a keeper for the ejectors. You can see the screw is absent where it is normally seen on the water table or in the lug.
Posted By: xausa Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 01/01/19 08:35 PM
Originally Posted By: Der Ami
Raimey,
Of course you are right about BSW, I didn't take the time to look it up. Unless I missed it again, Emil Kerner added an interrupting sear to the Anson and Deeley action, so I believe we are thinking of the same thing.


Actually, Kerner's contribution to the Anson action was not an interrupting sear, but a relocation of the sear, allowing a very light trigger pull with increased safety.

Here is a sketch of the Kerner-Anson action and a photo of my Kerner-Anson drilling:



Posted By: ENM Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 01/19/19 05:39 PM
Hello Raimey! I just got another look at that BSW. The safety does automatically reset when opened. Also the barrel length is 32 inches. I would really like a value on this gun for my father-in-law. It is really difficult to put a number on it. Thanks, Ed
ENM: First of all, no one has taken the time to welcome you to the site, so please accept this as your welcome.

You have a very nice gun there, obviously a higher-end piece from the engraving, etc. Not the typical engraving for a German gun - that would more likely have been figurative than the scrolls and such you have. So I will go along with this gun having possibly been made with either the export market or fanciers of American/English style guns in mind.

Now, on to the questions.

First, I'm a little dubious about the state of the receiver. Most receivers of that vintage were color case-hardened and yours appears to be a relatively uniform dun blue color. That uniform coloring would not necessarily exclude the gun being unfired (or only lightly used), but it raises a question: was this gun re-hardened, used and blued, or did it come that way?

Second, I'm left to wonder exactly what it is that is on the face of the right barrel's standing breech (where the firing pin protrudes) and also in the angle between the standing breech and the watertable. In the angle, it appears to be rust, and a lot of it. On the breech face, it appears almost like someone dropped a bead of weld metal (or other metal) on it. That corner is a very bad place to have rust or damage as it is one of the highest-stress points during firing. So we need to hear and see more.

Third, I'm a little dubious about exactly what the patterns of light and shadow on the receiver's watertables are from. That area is almost never anything but plain and flat, with required proofing stamps the only markings. Your pictures show odd shapes - they could be from some episode of heating or something else.

Without more information on what's going on in those places and with the color of the receiver, it's impossible to give an estimate of the price because it's really impossible to know what the actual condition (and history, as reflected in condition) of the gun is. The quality and coverage of the engraving points at a higher value, but if the mechanics are bad or compromised, all the engraving in the world won't change that.

This is one, IMHO, that needs an in-hand inspection by a really good smith experienced with doubleguns or a very knowledgeable prospective buyer.

And, as noted above this was a Simson gun made under the BSW name, sold through a retailer in Berlin. Interestingly the proof date of 7/36 means it may have been made in anticipation of the Olympics of that year to sell to visitors to Berlin in that time, but that's just speculation on my part.
Posted By: ENM Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 02/10/19 01:10 AM
Hi Dave and thank you for the welcome to the Site!
In regards to your questions:
First The gun was purchased during as you see it. I cannot tell you why the receiver has the color it does.
Second the odd things on the face of the breech are bugs! Yeah I know it needs a cleaning! Pretty funny stuff.
Third the patterns on the water table areas appear to be almost like an acid etched “pattern” I am guessing for decoration? Like adding a “jeweled” pattern to a bolt rifle bolt.
Yes I figure a value would be difficult to achieve. My father-in-law just wants to know if he has a $500 or a $5000 gun. Our next step may be just giving it a good cleaning after I bust a few clays with it then putting it away again.
Thank you so much for your input!
Posted By: ellenbr Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 02/10/19 10:41 AM
ENM:

I would say it is a historical piece & even a rare piece for the Simson/Waffa/BSW/Gustloff-Werke evolution. Rare pieces aren't necessarily valued highly nor does history add much in the eyes of most potential purchasers. But considering the above, along with replacement value, insurance, etc. I would hazard a guess a range of $1800 U.S. of A. to $2200. But putting it on an auction site or out for bid is the only true way to determine a realized value.

Then you get a bit of a dose of reality w/ Rocketman's value calculus:

"I value vintage guns reasonably accurately by combining Original Quality grade (OQ), Brand Value level (BV), and Current Condition level (CC). So, I'll assume this was between a second and third grade OQ gun (OQ6 to OQ7); say, 1/3 good engraving coverage, good figured wood, and good fit and finish. The brand value level for BSW is level four or BV4 (lessor known Continental makers, often associated with modest quality guns). Assume the Current Condition is between CC3 (significant use) and CC4 (heavy use, but no abuse). BV4-OQ6-CC3 = $1160, BV4-OQ6-CC4 = $883, BV4-OQ7-CC3 = $810, and BV4-OQ7-CC4 = $616. See if you can fit the gun as you see/remember it into that matrix......"

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=389449&page=all

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Gunter Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 02/10/19 01:19 PM
regarding the action colour, imho this is a 'nitride hardened' action which should be silver/grey in colour.
Sometimes the lower area of engraving is blackened.
Again imho it is darkened with crud and something similar to oxidation - years of neglect?
I can't get pics up here any more, otherwise I would show my Otto Bock pre-war gun with a nitride action.

As always - I could be wrong!

Perhaps Raimey can oblige with a pic of some such 'grey' action

regards
Gunter

edit: Xausa's pic a bit further up shows such an action
Posted By: ellenbr Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 02/10/19 02:45 PM
Sure Gunter, but the below is a Gustloff Werke:






Gunter forward me any images & I'll gladly post them.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Posted By: ellenbr Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 02/10/19 03:13 PM
Gunter, the example of which you are a custodian is badged BSW, correct?







Subject longarm.....

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Gunter Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 02/10/19 03:42 PM
Raimey,
thanks for that.
No, mine is not marked at all apart from Otto Bock Berlin on top of the barrels.
You might remember that we did some research on this gun some years ago without success
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=317445&page=1

date code is 939 and the s/n 366005
we were unable to assign that s/n to any maker for that time period.
If there is any further info since then, I would still be interested to find out the maker.

best regards
Gunter
Posted By: ellenbr Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 02/10/19 03:55 PM
Oh yeah. I have it on my list on the back of may hand. Still hope to show up on your stoop/doorstep in Oktober.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Gunter Re: JP Sauer/Otto Bock 12ga double help - 02/10/19 04:10 PM
you are most welcome.

rgds
Gunter
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