I picked up this nice Emil Kerner & Son 16 gauge a couple of weeks ago. In the last pic showing the proofs, am I correct in assuming the 8,29 stands for August of 1929 as year of production?

gunsaholic,
That is almost correct, it represents the date of proof, which would be close to the date of production. That is a nice score, by the way.
Mike

I’d say nice score! That’s a beauty. Looks in great condition. Is that a CGN purchase?

Thanks guys. No, this gun came from Landsborough Auctions. It is actually nicer than the pics made it look and better than described. It's a dandy little gun. I also picked up an unfired Webley & Scott 702.

That’s a great looking gun. Congratulations! I love the horn trigger guard.

Lovely gun!

I have Emil Kerner #1817, a very light 16, 2.5" chambers, 28.75" barrels, 5# 9oz. Marked Emil Kerner Suhl on the left barrel and just St. Louis on the right barrel.

Mine is a much earlier, simpler style action while yours looks much more robust with side-clips and bolsters. Is it 2-3/4"? Weight?

Congrats,

Rob

It is 2 3/4". I don't have a very good scale but I get 6 pounds, 6 oz.

gunsaholic,
If it is 2 3/4" now, it has been rechambered. The 16 in a circle shows it went through the proof house with 65mm( 2 1/2- 2 9/16") chambers. It is still a very nice gun.
Mike

I took a rough reading when I first did the measurement. My bad. It is just shy of 2 9/16".

gunsaholic,
your new measurement matches the proof marks at 65mm.
Mike

Fantastic Kerner - Anson Body Action with Emil or Ernst Kerner's initals on the tubes along w/ the initials >>F.A.<< on the flats.

Now there was a Fritz Albrecht but I am not sure he was active in the mid to late 1920s. But Gebrüder Adamy was as it was founded by Albert & Franz Adamy in 1921. So I would say Franz Adamy had some part in the tubeset knitting. You see the initials on many Suhl doubles from this period especially those of Charles Daly, being the last of his quality offerings.

Times were most difficult in this tumultuous period & many concerns faltered. In 1919, Ernst Kerner partnered with Carl Funk and by 1923 Ernst Kerner had hung out his own shingle while Kerner & Sohn(Emil) really began to falter and by 1929 looks like it went into receivership and was dispersed where in 1930 Emil Paul Jopp of Albrechts landed up with it. Ernst was in full control & is noted as being the designer of a boxlock platform - Erfinder selbstspannender Jagdwaffen. Too Ernst Kerner was supported by a machinist by the name of Johannes Viereck, who might have performed the heavy lifting on the platform?

Have you a better image of the side of the frame?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Here are some more pics.

I have a question regarding German guns from this period. Apart from varying degrees of engraving and some slight differences in receiver shape or cocking indicators, the boxlock guns appear to originate from the same basic design. Did gun makers like Sauer, Merkel, Kerner, etc all source them from the same factory and finish them to their own specifics, or did they just all use the exact same design? Correct me if I am wrong, but Simsons appear to be slightly different. My T+S Nimrod is clearly a completely different action.

On second thought, Simsons look pretty similar too. It’s the Dalys that look slightly different.

Your Nimrod frame would have originated @ the Romerwerke / Römerwerk/ Röhmerwerk . Jacob Römer / Röhmer either didn't know his last name or how to spell it. He seems to jump from one spelling to another @ the drop of a hat. I would think Sauer could have forged their own frames, but then again there could have been a blank frame forge such as the Schilling forge. E. Schmidt & Habermann did their own frame filing and too might have had the capability. It may be that the Anson & Deeley Body Action and variants had to maintain a certain amount of steel for the integrity of the action, so they pretty much were the same shape.

Daly / Lindner more than likely sourced his frames from Sauer.

Have a gander @ all the mechanics @ the Röhmerwerk facility:

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/romerwerk-the-becker-revolving-shotgun/

You know, I hadn't noticed the 1925 trademark of a dagger thru a R or Rs.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

If of interest, I own an Ernst Schlegelmilch 16 ga. Picked it up in Vegas show about 8 years ago and it took me 4 years to find the makers name located right between the two firing pins on breach face. It was very faint and when cleaning it, the light caught the markings and with the help of a permanent marker I was able to read 90% of the name...got the rest by googling it. I bought it because of the nice design of receiver...reminded me of my 16 ga. Fox AE.
After discovering the maker, I called the German collectors assn. in NY (?) and a very helpful older gent. told me he thought I had the only Ernst Schlegelmilch in the states. Evidently, Ernst was well known for a safety device he patented for his guns.
It's a nice gun, not fancy but handles well and shoots well too.
Carl

I’d love to see a picture of it...

As would I.

One of the things that interested me about your Nimrod was that it was an entirely different action. I had for many years a Heym 16 that I sold last year to VictoryXC. It came from a similar time period. A cursory look suggests a great deal of similarity with the Kerner Gunsaholic is showing here (but for the bolsters). The Kerner appears to be finished to a higher degree and some details are different but I would not be surprised if the rough forgings each maker began with were the same.

Brian, if my experience with the Heym is anything to go on, you got a great gun. Patrick stole it from me but I suspect, knowing you, you got an even better deal! How long are the barrels?

I believe the screw in the top rear of the action reveals it to be an improved Anson and Deeley invented by Emil Kerner. Axel Eichendorff's (kuduae's) comment:

"During the 1920s the Suhl gunmakers almost universally adopted E.Kerner's modification of the A&D lockwork. Kerner relocated the sears to the top/rear of the action. They turn on a screw located at the top rear of the action and engage a detent on the top of the tumblers, removed as far as possible from the hammer fulcrum. This arrangement vastly improved the leverage. As much less mainspring pressure rested on the sear detent, Kerner's top sears allow lighter and at the same time safer trigger releases. Secondary safety sears are unnecessary with Kerner's sear arrangement."

https://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubb...true#Post233792

Great info guys.

James, the barrels are 29" long.
I don't know how much Patrick robbed you but I can't say the same. This gun was not cheap but I wanted a decent German 16 gauge.
Now I have to hit up Prophet River for some RST!!

Do note that the >>Original Kerner-Anson & Deely<<, shortened to >>Kerner-Anson<< in most instances, has a pin or two in the lower portion the the back of the frame.

I don't know that Axel E. sorted out if the origins of the Kerner-Anson Body Action fell w/ Emil or Ernst but the most astute website of Dietrich Apel / Larry Schuknecht(Dietrich would be most proud) points towards Emil being the culprit as surmised above and, and the script EK is that of Emil not Ernst. Seems sohn Ernst left fold to blaze his own path while sohn Franz partnered w/ father Emil.

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/archives/kerner-e/

Somewhere on this site, I've posted DRGMS for Ernst so I'll mine for those.

But regardless, the Kerner-Anson platform became THE workhorse for Suhl wares.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Is this what you were referring to, Raimey?

Xausa:

That was a portion of it & I thought that a DRGM of Ernst Kerner was coupled with that diagram?

I'll try to locate it & post those of both Emil & Ernst to see how the Kerner-Anson platform evolved.

Cheers,

Raimey
rse