Hello all (1st post)! I'm considering buying what I think is a 1911 Sauer and "son" SxS 20 gauge made for US import and I have a couple questions I hope you guys can help me with. My only knowledge of this stuff is from decoding the proof marks on my 1955 Sauer and Sohn 12 gauge and what I read on forums like this one so I may be wrong in my assumptions below (and above).

Q #1) can I shoot light target #8 modern shells through it (assuming chamber is 2 3/4")? It has no "nitro" or "eagle over N" proof marks but reading old threads here it seems this time period had only voluntary proof marks for smokeless powder and it was inconsistently (perhaps rarely?) used.

Q #2) What does the "19" next to the 20 inside a circle proof mark mean? I have seen things like "13/1" next to circle 12 which I understand to mean the specific bore diameter but have not seen one like this where the number to the left of the circled number is less than the circled number.

Q #3) any indications on the proof marks shown that it is 2 3/4" chambers? I assume it is 2 9/16" which I understand is common for this time period?

Here are some proof mark photos that might help (these r all the pics I have with proof marks): I apologize for links showing up instead of pics, not sure how to embed pics yet.
https://imgur.com/90Ss2U0
https://imgur.com/GC3hhIS
https://imgur.com/j8vjVY8

Welcome Mike on your first posting

To make them show
put an [img] in the front of the link
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I feel the chambers are 65mm (2 1/2")

The Crown U was replaced in 1912 for Nitro Proof

Mike

fun reading
http://www.shotguns.se/html/germany_1890-1945.html

http://www.rstshells.com/store/m/2-12-Gauge.aspx

The 20 in a circle means it has a standard 20 gauge chamber, which is 65mm( 2 1/2"). It is easy enough to measure, however. The 19 is the bore diameter ahead of the chamber, in gauge measurement. This works out to 15.90mm. BTW, the left barrel is choked( constriction not given), as shown by the crown W. The right barrel is not choked. The crown U was still used after 1912( view proof) to show it was closely inspected, including dimensions, after proof.
Mike

Could you pleasure us with an better image of the 1st pic?

Looks like a Sauer Quality Crown and look on the extractor face to see if a >>70<< is stamped there.

I would steer away from >>light target<< loads and look purely at the pressure values for each cartridge.

As you said, for export & most of the time the importer / retailer didn't want to pay the extra pfenning for the Voluntary semi smokeless proof.

Is it listed in G&H's list or was it a Daly import?

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Per the serial number, it looks like it was in a block of Schoverling, Daly & Gales imports?

What Modell is it?


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Thx! It looks like the 2 1/2" shells are available without too crazy of a price hike. Very good to know! Thanks for the proofmarks link also! Cheers!

Very helpful info! Much appreciated!

Thx for the info! I unfortunately don't have a better pic of the barrels. That pic is hard to make out for sure.

Re "Is it listed in G&H's list or was it a Daly import?" I have to admit my ignorance that I don't know what those are other than I have seen many photos of fancy and very beautiful Daly marked guns. This is a very plain model without any fancy engravings fwiw.

I have one fairly blurry pic of the extractor face and don't see any stampings/markings there, so I assume it's 2 1/2" chambers, especially as that is what Der Ami and sheettx thought above. I don't have access to the gun to measure it unfortunately.

BTW, one detail I noticed is that on the receiver the crown stamp is partially destroyed where the words "made in Prussia" are. I assume the importer sanded out the area before stamping with "made in Prussia"? I wonder what other markings got wiped out in that process (if that is indeed what happened). I assume serial number there is also from importer? Script of the 6 appears different than barrel script. Just something I noticed.

G&H had Nr. 161579 pass thru their hands @ one time:

http://secure.griffinhowe.com/research-listserial.cfm?make=37

http://griffinhowe.com/researchyourfirearm/

Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Per the 1907 S, D & G Catalogue for basic scroll engraving,

The Daly No. 1 - Sauer was an A&D Body Action with overhanging scears with a Doll's Head Extension

The Daly No. 2 - Sauer was an A&D Body Action with overhanging scears with a Greener Crossbolt Extension.


Cheers,

Raimey
rse

Wow that G&H site is really cool. If you had a gun that went through their records you could get a copy of the original sale and possibly details on it and maybe buyers name. Really neat!