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Posted By: Texasbdog Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 09/14/21 01:36 AM
Hi, I have purchased a Franz Kettner cape gun in 16g/9.3x72R. This has beautiful engraving and awesome Burl wood and appears to be in great condition. Has anybody here had any experience with this maker? Posted in the right forum now, thanks for the messages.
Posted By: Jtplumb Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 09/14/21 03:42 AM
Show some pics of the gun and any script or numbers, these guys can give you its pedigree. Especially barrel and action flats.
Kettner sold some great prewar pieces. I have a pair I’m the family custodian of for now.

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: Jtplumb Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 09/14/21 03:47 AM
Germanhuntingguns.com has an early kettner Catalog under archives where you may find your gun, I did.

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-makers/gun-makers-catalogs/franz-kettner
Posted By: Texasbdog Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 09/14/21 03:48 AM
I’m trying to figure out how to post pictures.
Posted By: Texasbdog Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 09/14/21 04:15 AM
Originally Posted by Jtplumb
Germanhuntingguns.com has an early kettner Catalog under archives where you may find your gun, I did.

http://www.germanhuntingguns.com/about-the-makers/gun-makers-catalogs/franz-kettner
I looked at all the guns, mine has the action release under the forearm and it’s made of Buffalo Horn as is the long trigger guard. Thanks for posting that. My German is very rusty however.
Posted By: journeymen Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 09/14/21 04:39 PM
If you'd like i can post the pictures for you. Shoot me a link or i can message you my e-mail
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 09/14/21 04:45 PM
Texasbdog,
AS you have likely figured out by now, Franz Kettner mostly marketed other maker's guns rather than making them "in house". Many of the guns marked Kettner but made by someone else may have a "house mark" of the actual maker somewhere on the gun, though not all of them. This is why it is important that clear photos of all markings should be posted. Even if the actual maker can't be identified, proof marks can provide other important information.
Mike
Posted By: Texasbdog Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 09/14/21 07:57 PM
I have pictures of all the proof marks I think. Journeymen is sending me an email so I can send them too him. I’m very curious bout this gun. The serial number is 628.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/15/21 06:11 PM
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/15/21 06:13 PM
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Texasbdog Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/15/21 07:21 PM
Thank you Raimey for posting these pics for me sir.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/15/21 08:20 PM
Texasbdog,
Sadly, I'm not able to inform you who the actual maker of your gun was, based on the proof marks. I am able to inform you, however, that it was proofed in Germany( maybe Suhl, maybe Zella) sometimes between 1893( when the 1891 proof law was implemented) and about 1912( when 1911 improvements to the law were made). The crown U under an eagle is the mark for a "View" proof, performed after a definitive proof, using the provisional proof charge. A view proof is basically a detailed inspection, including verification of dimensions, after firing the proof loads. The crown G on the rifle barrel is the provisional proof for a barrel using a single projectile( bullet). The crown S on the other barrel is the provisional proof mark for barrels using shot. The crown W next to the eagle on the barrel flat means the shotgun barrel is choked, but the amount of constriction is not shown. The 16 in a circle means the gun had a standard 16 ga. chamber which is 65mm or 2 1/2- 2 9/16" instead of the current US standard of 2 3/4". The 16/1 is the bore diameter, ahead of the chamber, which works out to 16.99mm. The 118/35 is the rifle's bore( not groove or bullet) diameter, expressed in gauge measurement. This mark is often found on various old 9.3 and 9mm rifles and is consistent with your statement that it is a 9.3x72R. One of the changes made in 1912 would change this mark to show the bore diameter in mm and show the case length, also in mm. From experience, guns showing a 118/35 mark most often have about .358-.359" groove diameter, which would be helpful to you if you decide to handload ammo for it. I hope this helps.
Mike
Posted By: Texasbdog Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/15/21 08:30 PM
Thank you Mike, I bought this sight unseen on the basis of it being a unique and an older gun. It was listed as a Cafe gun at a small east Texas auction. My ultimate goal is to sell this one and buy me a nice quality 20 gauge SxS. Would anyone here have an idea of it’s value? And where would be the best place to sell it? I do have some ammo that would convey with the purchase. I have been fascinated researching this gun and have come to the conclusion that makers then and to some extent now, are not as forthright with the origins of the items they were selling.
Posted By: HalfaDouble Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/15/21 10:52 PM
I'll guess maybe $550 to $850 depending heavily on bore condition. It's a shame about the apparent condition of the wood. Of course, I may be out of touch with the current market. It may even be lower. Having bought 2 nice top lever hammer drillings in 16/16/9.3 for $75 and $35 (yes, $35) and a 16/9.3 hammer Cape, also top lever, for $75, I may be slanted.
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/15/21 11:05 PM
Texasbdog,
I suspect the listing as a "Cafe gun" was a typo. I believe they meant "Cape gun" instead.
Mike
Posted By: Texasbdog Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/15/21 11:06 PM
Originally Posted by Der Ami
Texasbdog,
I suspect the listing as a "Cafe gun" was a typo. I believe they meant "Cape gun" instead.
Mike
Yes that’s what it should have been.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/16/21 11:15 AM
The stock looks to be of the Bavarian, maybe Austrian, style. The frame appears to have been sourced from Ferlach. Can you read the stamp beside the >>Crown over G<< near the lower rib and below the forend hanger? Too, can you send me a pic of the water-table & standing breech?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/17/21 11:04 AM
Ford or Jani:

If you are listening, is there protocol per each gunmaking centre as to in which direction the rear ocular folds? This German Kettner Biks example folds towards the receiver whilst a couple of the Ferlach Biks, of which I am a custodian, fold away from the receiver. The internals of these oculars, which are designed for success, have long captivated me.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/17/21 01:16 PM
Raimey,
I never thought about it, the one I have is like the one in this thread( so is the cheek piece and other features). I suspect rather than protocol, you will find it depended on whose parts the maker used. They would tend to use a local parts maker, but maybe not always.
Mike
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/17/21 01:24 PM
Ford:

But would the selection of the frame or the type of frame filer each mechanic might prefer dictate which way it folds? Better phrased, when does the work on the rear ocular commence & terminate with respect to the longarm?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/17/21 01:59 PM
sad too that the novel advancement of glass atop led to the demise of the rear okular.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/17/21 02:33 PM
Thanks to Wolfgang I now know the German term to be:

>>Klapp - Diopter<< on the Scheibe.


Other relevant terms are:

Lochvisier

Aufklappbar


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: montenegrin Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/17/21 03:49 PM
In Austria/Ferlach: Gucker, Umleg-Gucker

In Slovenian: Gucker = kukalo


With kind regards,
Jani
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/17/21 03:55 PM
Raimey,
I suspect one folding either way could be fit up.
Mike
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 09/19/21 11:27 AM
It also depends on the type of weapon. In the Mannlicher-Schönauer GK repeaters, the folding diopters were fitted with a spring and reared up again after the repeating operation.

Cheers,
Wolfgang
Posted By: Richard Saloom Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 10/11/21 11:51 PM
I have three Franz Kettner firearms. Two drillings and one shotgun. When I talked to David Moses several years ago, he indicated that they were an actual maker and moved to the west at some point after the war. They had a location that was open until at least a few years ago. FRANZ Kettner should not be confused with Eduard Kettner.

Mine are well made and two have wonderful engraving.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 10/12/21 11:58 AM
Although possible, I have serious reservations that either of the Kettners in Köln actually fully did make their wares. Images of the marks would point us in a direction. Ernst Emil Steigleder is about the only Berlin Büchsenmacher, although not of Köln, that actually added effort to his wares. He had a shop in Suhl for sourcing / manufacture & a Niederlassungen(Branch Office) or Satellite Office in Berlin for retail as Berlin was where the Benjamins were. Both Eduard Kettner & Franz Ketter both had a Suhl address noted as a Zweigniederlassung or Branch Office in Suhl, which I assume was just for sourcing from the talented mechanics in Suhl. From viewing their offerings, they too sourced the mechanics in Zella - Mehlis as well as those in Liège. But I am not sure if either term Niederlassungen or Zweigniederlassung notes a manufacturing shop??? Maybe Wolfgang can put us on the straight & narrow.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 10/12/21 12:12 PM
Franz Kettner hung out his gunmaking shingle in 1835 in Köln and his Grandson was an apprentice to Christian Sturm. By the start of WWI Franz Kettner did have a presence in Suhl and @ the end of WWI one finds Franz Kettner the owner of the Christian Sturm concern. In 1943 the Köln facility was bombed to smithereens and they relocated to Suhl.

Too along the way Eduard Kettner absorbed other businesses like Engelbrecht Clever.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 10/12/21 12:17 PM
I am fairly sure the following Engelbrecht Clever Nachfolger, Köln is an offering, Belgian sourced, by Eduard Kettner?????

https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=597957&page=1

Maybe the custodian can tell us what is stamped on the left tube?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 10/12/21 09:51 PM
Too, interesting that once the custodian was provided with a value, he was never to be heard from again?

Wolfgang on Kettners:

>>Niederlassung means branch, Zweigniederlassung means subsidiary

in the German dewiki :

On January 23, 1884, the company Eduard Kettner was entered in the Cologne Commercial Register and the first Kettner hunting store was opened in the heart of the cathedral city. At the beginning of the 20th century, Kettner was one of the first mail-order companies in Germany. Kettner acquired factories in Suhl (Thuringia) and Porz (Cologne), where thousands of hunting weapons were produced and subsequently exported.

In 1925, the Bühring family purchased Kettner and expanded the headquarters in Cologne. The company was first managed by Friedrich Bühring's father-in-law, the well-known "Patronen-Dornheim". He was the owner of G.C. Dornheim AG from Lippstadt, a weapons and ammunition wholesaler with seven branches in Germany and abroad.<<
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 10/12/21 09:56 PM
Yes, the Bührings purchased the Eduard Kettner concern. Robert Freidrich Bühring led the charge followed by Karl Georg & Dr. Klaus Bühring.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 10/12/21 10:00 PM
Too, Andreas Kloster was involved in the Clever concern followed by Wilhelm Hommelsheim. A factory indeed in in Porz-Urbach as well as a Zweigniederlassung in Danzig.

Seems Wilhelm Hommelsheim was @ the helm of the concern Engelbrecht Clever, Nachfolger.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 10/12/21 10:14 PM
So, Wilhelm Hommelsheim had the reins of the compagnie whilst the name >>Engelbrecht Clever, Nachfolger<< was roll stamped on the top of the tubes:

[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]


https://doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=597957&page=1


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/13/21 02:25 PM
In 1903 Wilhelm Hommelsheim, owner of the company Engelbert Clever Nachf. had to file for bankruptcy.

http://www.hunting-heritage.com/BoersenZtg-1903-02.jpg

http://www.hunting-heritage.com/BoersenZtg-1903-001.jpg


Gunwolf
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/13/21 02:57 PM
Fantastic. Was he on his own or was he an employee of Kettner or other?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/13/21 04:01 PM
Raimey, ist it possible, this was the chance for Kettner to buy it?

Cheers,
Wolfgang
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/13/21 04:06 PM
It could have been an opportune time but Andreas Kloster was in there somewhere. I wasn't sure if Wilhelm Hommelsheim was an employee of the Eduard Kettner compagnie or not.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Gunwolf Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/13/21 04:11 PM
But he was the "Inhaber" Eigentümer...!?

Cheers,
Wolfgang
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/13/21 04:13 PM
Not sure, but possibly Egnelbert Clever obtained the business from Wilhelm Hommelsheim?? Then circa 1897 Clever hitched his harness to the Clever & Kettner concern? Then in 1912 Eduard Kettner absorbed the Engelbrecht Clever Nachfolger company in 1912??? Yet to be sorted.....


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Jtplumb Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/14/21 12:26 AM
I would be very interested to know when Engelbrecht Clever Nachfolger ceased selling guns, it would help me date mine which hasn’t been possible for me? I have 2 of them with serial numbers 10 digits apart. With the Belgium markings( bore and choke notation style) they were thought to be 1910-1923 also both have 70mm original chambers, marked so on barrels? Obviously I will keep digging and let everyone know if I find, but you guys are much better than I at this.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/14/21 01:08 AM
What are the terms on the top of the left tube of each? And I assume both wear >>Engelbrecht Clever Nachfolger<< on the top of the right tube?

Serbus,

Raimey
rs
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/14/21 12:28 PM
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

100 Year advert.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/14/21 12:45 PM
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]



[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


The Clever Concern a Köln was doing quite a bit of advertising in 1897......



Serbus,


Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/14/21 09:58 PM
Friar Fred of Utah over @ GGCA gives the the following for Engelbert Clever Nachfolger in an older thread:

>>From what I can gather, the Nachfolger was a gent named Hommelsheim, a master gun maker, who, on New Year's Day of 1913 gave the business over to Kettner but operated it afterwards as a branch of Ed. Kettner. The addresses I have are not the same. <<



https://www.doublegunshop.com/forum...Words=Delheid&Search=true#Post266973

Not sure if this is gospel as I can see Kettner sourcing the talented mechanics in Liège, but just a >>Successor<< ??? Not sure.

Thanks Wolfgang for the reminder.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Jtplumb Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/15/21 12:00 AM
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Other one is Karl Kormes with Leipzig on other side
Posted By: Jtplumb Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/15/21 12:06 AM
Karl Kormes Leipzig
[Linked Image from i.imgur.com]
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/15/21 12:28 AM
Many thanks for the effort. I am quite confident that Scholbert & Delheid(?) made both & were the source to the trade.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/15/21 12:31 AM
Too, that is >>Köln a. Rh<< or Köln on Rhine.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Jtplumb Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/15/21 12:40 AM
When did Kormes company throw in the towel?
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/15/21 12:52 AM
Karl Körmes in Leipzig hung out his gunmaking shingle in 1797 and a character by the name of Albrecht Roland took the reins of the concern in 1918 or @ the end of WWI and was at the helm of it to 1942 or thereabouts?

Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/15/21 12:56 AM
That square crossbolt is nothing @ which to sneeze. Which one wears that?


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Jtplumb Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun - 10/15/21 01:34 AM
Both of those have same action identical only breech face/ fences differ. Bottom of action even the same size, just ones straight other prince of Wales. Most of my double guns have square cross bolts always liked them same thing with carved fences. What makes square cross bolts better? I just thought they looked good?
Posted By: Texasbdog Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 10/15/21 02:02 AM
I’m still here, just wasn’t any comments for a while and it took me a couple days to check back in. I appreciate the history of this family of gun makers, sellers or what ever they were. They sound like enterprising men for certain.
The left barrel has Küln-Sohl stamped on it.
Posted By: Texasbdog Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 10/15/21 02:21 AM
The gun came with 2 boxes of shells, 16 gauge shot shells and 9.3x72r rifle cartridges. Going by the stampings , would this be correct?
Posted By: Der Ami Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 10/15/21 07:48 PM
Texasbdog,
Take a look at my comments back on page 2. If the 16 gauge shells that came with it are 2 1/2 or 2 1/16" , that would be correct. If they are 2 3/4", you should check to see if the chamber has been lengthened without being marked. The 9.3x72R cartridges would be one of the cartridges consistent with the markings. If they chamber, that would rule out any of the shorter cartridges. While not very likely, it could be chambered for either 9.3x75R( the 360 base one) or 9.3x82R Nimrod. A chamber cast would be necessary to rule these out. Firing 9.3x72 R ammo in either of these wouldn't likely be dangerous, but it might not be very accurate in a 9.3x82R chamber.
Mike
Posted By: Texasbdog Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 10/15/21 11:41 PM
Yes, the 16 gauge shells that came with it are 2 1/2”. There is one shell missing in each box.
Thanks for the info.
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 11/07/21 12:53 PM
[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]


[Linked Image from jpgbox.com]

I was thinking of this platform.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
Posted By: Texasbdog Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 11/08/21 04:05 AM
Well that gives me an idea. What auction is that? Thanks
Posted By: ellenbr Re: Franz Kettner Cape Gun-Lefaucheux - 11/08/21 12:32 PM
Poulin in Maine.


Serbus,

Raimey
rse
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