doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com In Contemplation of Death--Binko--Gun Collection

Binko: I'll start a new thread so my "valuable" information is not lost at the end of a thread that seems to be wearing itself out: Valuable in the that sense it's worth what you pay...

A preface: I am both an attorney and CPA, and while gainfully employed I did tax, probate, trusts, wills, and advanced estate planning for coin of the realm.

First: Is your only concern in contemplation of death the disposition of some guns? Do you have a will? What about other assets? And do you really intend to disinherit your kids? What about other collateral relations? If your girl friend dies, what do you get?

Second: You are in a most common relationship given today's treatment of widow/widower marriages. Not only is Social Security a concern, but there's on-going survivor's health insurance and pension benefits, not to mention the fear of co-mingling assets under the expansive interpetations of activist jurists in the various states. If you intend to disinherit your kids in favor of a "girl friend" then you better see a lawyer who does not specialize in traffic tickets.

Third: Nobody wants to "inherit" someone's anal retentive instructions about every little thing that he or she could have best taken care of when alive, present, and accounted for. I spent a professional career dissuading prospective dead people that when it's all said and done, the greater mass of men and women want cash, unless there is some sentimental attachment to a heirloom. I understand your girl friend does not need or want your guns, except for the cash they represent. And you plan to keep them to the bitter end, while having the ability to buy and sell along the way. You should consider the following:

Fourth: Hire an attorney who is likely to survive you. Make sure he understands the nature and extent of your assets; make a list for his file. Have a will prepared according to your wishes; also a medical power of attorney, and possibly a durable power of attorney if your situation warrants it. You can barely be admitted to a hospital for an overnite stay without having the medical power. And if you "linger on" incapicated the durable power greases the skids for cashing checks and other day-to-day activities that went so smoothly when you both were able and fit.

Fifth: Make sure your girl friend can legally possess firearms. In Illinois everyone needs a "Firearms Owners Identification" card. Check your state's requirements, if any. Assuming she legally takes possession of your guns under your will, or by gift in contemplation of death on your death bed, then there should be a pre-existing relationship with an FFL who can handle necessary transactions like mailing, etc. But believe me, all the "fine tuning" of which auction house charges a point less, or which Internet auction site is more user friendly, is gonna evaporate in one swell foop of realizing ready cash for stuff she really doesn't want...so let me say this, not as a lawyer:

Sixth: My dad died within the last year at 91; my wife's dad died in July at 99; both had "girl friends" who they would have wed years ago but for the Social Security, Pension, Health Ins issues, so "I've been there, done that." Yet married or not, there was no expectation that their respective girl friends would inherit (nor the old gentlemen on the chance that they would survive). Disinheriting natural children is un-natural, so I can visulize the "hell to pay" in today's never-ending litigation system of natural-born entitlements when things are otherwise. If you are committed to favoring your girl friend over your natural-born issue, you better also be committed to spending the $$$ to get it right.

Seventh: I have had dealings with James Julia and Pat Hogan (RIA) and they both earn their money by providing a service. Julia's Auction charges 15% seller's premium on guns that are nothing special, and maybe zero % on the Czar's gun, or that Colt Walker cataloged to go for $500,000 to $1,000,000 in the catalog that just arrived FedEx. Julia's also charges a flat rate 1% for insurance. And then there's packaging, postage, and USPS insurance (only up to $5,000 as I recall).

Finally: My sense of of your bits and pieces on the prior thread of whether this fits for you depends on the sound value of your guns. Anything that is not guaranteed to go for $1,500 and up is probably not worth shipping to a major auction house (unless you have several such guns). But even so, your attempt to make valuation or sales venue part of your disposition decision seems to be the proverbial "hand from the grave," and is overkill. In this context, I read with ammusement the postings of some who claim to have established "trusts" to insure that the apple of their eye will hang like an albotross around the necks of their heirs in perputituty. My God! We're talking about guns! Excessive concern about your girl friend's ability to realize on her assets after you are no longer in the land of the living is only going to put a monkey on her back. I am against monkeys and albotrosses.

There's nothing worse for a dealer, auctioner, or retail purchased than trying to deal with a "widow" whose deceased husband planted the poison pill of his valuations, giving strict instructions of how or where to sell, etc. Times change. Selling venues change. Prices change. Just make sure that your intention that she get these assets at your death is bullet proof, the rest will work itself out so long as she has a general idea of current value and understands that well-known dealers and auction houses get a cut of retail. People who inherit guns they neither need or want aren't going to all of a sudden start selling that for which they lack familiarity on the Internet, or start setting up at gun shows to sell at retail. Nuff Said, EDM

I read your post, Ed. What should I do?

Well written and good advice Ed. I learned much of this the hard way when I had take of my father in the last three years of his life when he was suffering dementia.

I am single and have a child who has little interest and no real knowledge of collectable firearms.

My "solution" was to leave all my firearms, except one three generation heirloom expressingly identified as such, to my alternate trustee of my trust. He is a life long friend, hunting partner and shooter and collector of fine doubles. He is also who I want to have my guns if I should pass before him. he can cherry pick the collection and add to his own and he will have an understanding of value of what is to be sold and he will be the recipient of the proceeds. My intent is to leave my dughter things that will be much easier to appraise such as real estate, cash, bonds and equities.

Post deleted by Run With The Fox

Good advice Ed. I'm printing this as a reminder to get it all lined up sooner than later. You make good sense but, after all, you've been there - done that countless times. I'll look you up while at the "Annual" in a couple of weeks. Got a few pictures you will like to see re: H.H.B. pg. 309 your new book.

RWTF, I've read your post over and over and still can't find any reference to your leaving me that Parker . . . I'll go back and read it again.

If you mean in the context of the current thread, you should do some estate planning. The inheritance tax exemption is 2 mil. this year, 3.5 mil. next year, no tax at all the following year, and back to a 1 mil. exemption in 2011. With rates starting at 45%, perhaps some valuable Parkers of ambiguous ownership, shifting from one generation to the next within the family...well, you get the idea. Add up what you have and judge accordingly. Or as Destry is wont to gesture, Wink, Wink!

Or if you mean "what to do" in general, I'd say you should buy my new book. Those pictures I took at Sandy & Jay's in Leesburg of your unmarked CH-grade, and W. S. Perry's Bernard Twist look pretty good. Good guns with interesting features make for good and interesting pictures.

Nancy and I and ParkerDog will arrive at the Vintage Cup Thursday afternoon. We'll have some moose sausage to contribute, if you are doing a finger-food spread again. We got it from PGCA member Rich Flanders' next door neighbor in Fairbanks, so it's the real thing. EDM

Ed you are one sharp cat.

I'm running to my mailbox daily pained in anticipation.;)

Tim

Ed,

Don't send an invoice for that consultation, I don't think I could afford it? I'm trying to save you the price of postage.

Now, as far as the information that you offer, it is highly appreciated, and let me assure you that I will do my best to follow your suggestions, but let me assure you, that I do NOT intend to leave my children out of my will.

Some of the things that they will inherit are; 2-Subaru Outbacks, 3-Motorcycles, Yamaha, Kawasaki, & a Honda, 1-house and lot in town, 1-Hammond B-3 Organ, 1-Leslie tone cabinet, 11- other professional keyboards, 3 complete pro PA systems, All associated mics, cables, stands, etc., 8,000 lbs. bullet lead in ingots, and all associated melting, molding, & progressive loading equipment, and all fishing equipment, camping equipment, lathe, compressor, air, electric, and hand tools, painting equipment, numerous RC planes, Kits, motors, etc. None of this stuff is junk, I always bought the best available and I have maintained it, so now we get to these guns.

The stuff listed above, Shirley won't realize 1 dime of it, and I didn't acquire any of my guns while married to my son's mother, and most of it was acquired in the last 13 years that I have been with Shirley. So, I plan to see that she gets something for the years she has been here for me, and treating me way better than I ever got treated before. Now, I went through about 5 women before Shirley found me, and took me in, and they aren't going to get a thing, because they didn't do a thing to deserve anything.

I hope this can clear up my position a little, and help my image on this forum, so people don't think I am trying to cut my son's out of my will, and I am the "Big Bad Wolf"!

thanks again
binko

Binko,
I think what Ed is saying is you better have it spelled out in a will (all legal) otherwise after you are gone there can (and probably will be) a fight for Shirley. Not saying your kids would do that but if it is in writing then there is no fighting for the $ . So pay the bucks to get it written up and allow your family not to be fighting over things that you never thought they would. I know, I've been there and done that. Eric

Eric, I know this will be hard to believe, but my son's don't know anything about my guns or this collection, they are not the least bit interested in guns or hunting, so, all that has to be done, is for Shirley to claim the collection as her own...I think?

binko