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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 89
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 89 |
I found an Army & Navy that I'm interested in but it ain't cheap so I would like to know more about it. It's a SLE. Is there any way to tell who made it? If the identity of the maker is not marked on the gun, does anyone know which maker usually made the Army & Navy sidelock? There was a question earlier about an Army & Navy box lock and opinions were that it was made by Webley & Scott. Did they make sidelocks too? Is $6,000 too much to pay for a pretty clean 2 1/2" Army & Navy sidelock with original steel barrels?
I'm on this quest for an English SLE because of Mr. Hadoke's book but I find most of them out of the question because of price. The reasonably priced English guns are box locks. Is there such a thing as a good English SLE, other than this Army & Navy, in the same price range? I am assuming it will not be an H&H, Purdey, Boss, Churchill, or probably even Westley Richards or WC Scott. What else is there?
Richard Howard
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Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,964 Likes: 89
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,964 Likes: 89 |
Virtually all Army & Navy guns were made by W&C Scott, later Webley & Scott, and yes they made a lot of sidelock guns. Higher grades of Scott sidelocks will compare favorably with any London maker.
When an old man dies a library burns to the ground. (Old African proverb)
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 69
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 69 |
I don't want to sound pedantic but many of the early guns were not Scotts but by P. Webley & Sons; later Webley & Scotts. On my A&N screwgrip SLE (early 1890s) the records are found on an entire page of P Webley guns, except for a couple best guns built by very best London outworkers -- Hodges and Southgate. Most A&Ns seem to fall in the mid-grade category, but you get some real corkers from top-of-the-line W&S iterations and also London trade makers.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Assuming you are looking at a 12 bore SxS, USA retail, 1890ish to 1960ish, I can give you a ballpark value based on three factors from my market model. The premise for this market model is that guns are basically valued on three factors; Brand Value (BV) of the maker’s name, Original Quality (OQ) grade of the individual gun, and Current Condition (CC) of the individual gun. Note that despite the oft repeated question, "Did Mortimer Snerd make good guns?" OQ was a function of price point. All makers made their guns to price. Most makers offered a wide range of quality grades at price points. However, some makers achieved more brand value than did others - this value being independent of the quality of two identically "good" guns.
A&N achieved Brand Value level three (BV3) - they will generally retail for half the price of similar BV1 (Boss, H&H, Purdey, & Woodward) guns and two thirds of the price of similar BV2 guns. Original Quality grade can be determined from existing catalogues or experience. In this case, if you can provide the serial number, you can most likely get the exact cost, selling price, date of sale, and maker by contacting the University of Glasgow Archives where the A&N books are kept and made available. Current Condition level is the third factor. Is the gun "Pristine" = CC1, "Slightly Used" = CC2, "Significantly Used" = CC3, "Heavily Used but not Abused" = CC4, "Restored or in need of finish restoration" = CC5? There are are four more CC levels down to CC9 = "Wall Hanger," but you are not likely looking at one in this range.
Also, you can "reverse engineer" the price by looking up the asking price relative to OQ or CC for the BV3 level and asking yourself if the OQ or CC needed to make the price makes sense. Your $6,000 will be in range of a A&N SLE as follows: best gun (OQ1 - pretty unlikely) in CC5, "A" grade (OQ2) in CC4, "B" grade (OQ3) in CC3, "C" grade (OQ4) in CC2, and a "D" grade (OQ5 - also pretty unlikely) in CC1.
Post photos of the gun or a good description and we can refine the price range. Odds on this gun will turn out to be a W&S Screw Grip at one of the several finish levels in their catalogues.
Let me know if you have questions.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,380 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,380 Likes: 105 |
To compare original price of A&N sidelocks vs boxlocks . . . from the 1933 catalog, boxlock ejectors cost from 23-35 pounds. Sidelocks: First quality, 90; 2nd, 75; 3rd, 40. So there was quite a range of prices in sidelocks, depending on the "original quality" (think grade) of the gun.
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,540 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,540 Likes: 3 |
back to a question asked on i guess the other thread about A&N's, does anyone know how long it takes to get the info out of the university of Glasgow? i need it for an A&N SLE that based on another gun of known date and the original proofs on mine should put it around 1910. i've spoken with them on the phone and they very kindly offered that i could drop by and look it all up for myself. unfortunately one doesn't just leave fort worth and "drop by" Glasgow.
the only reason i've not pursued it further is that - as of the time i talked to them - one has to either fax or email a credit card number. not something i'm crazy about doing. have been thinking of getting a visa cash card only good for a set amount and using that number instead of one of my real ones.
roger
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Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 69
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 69 |
A response for records for my gun took about 3 weeks; it was long and detailed and worth every pence. Response came by snail mail and included the entire page out of the record book, as well as a partial decoder of the price code used and a xeroxed pic of a comparable gun to mine from a period A&N catalog(ue).
That said, that was 5-6 years ago, and the record-keeper may have changed.
Good luck
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,540 Likes: 3
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 1,540 Likes: 3 |
3 weeks by snailmail crossing the atlantic is pretty darned good service. i need to get that done as i've wanted to know more about it since i first got it 7 yrs ago.
roger
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
fnb25 - it will be time and money well spent!!
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Here is some "comparables" to sort of get you started on understanding the market model. This auction is next week. I have converted auction estimates from £ into $ at a rate of 2.5 to cover currency exchange, buyer's premium, and shipping. http://auctions.holtandcompany.co.uk/asp...2&saletype=Lot #1445 Estimate $3750 to $5000 BV3-OQ4-CC3 = $4161 http://auctions.holtandcompany.co.uk/asp...5&saletype=Lot #1403 Estimate $3750 to $5000 BV1-OQ5-CC4.5 = $4200 Maybe you could afford a gun with the H&H name on it. It is a Royal action, too. Note left handed triggers and cast-on stock; if you are a righty, you'd need to get those fixed.
Last edited by Rocketman; 09/19/08 01:07 PM.
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