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#114075 09/23/08 01:27 PM
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My mid-range" 1899 Francotte 12-gauge 26-inch barrels (uncut) muzzle measurements indicate Modified/Full to me.

The 2 5/8-chambered gun was "Made for C.W. Billings" (on the rib with gold bar)) and ordered through VLD "U.S. agents New York."

The "Francotte chokebore" markings under "choke" on the left barrel are 17.6 over 18.2 and 17.7 over 18.4.

On the right barrel are 17.9 over 18.2 and 17.9 over 18.4.

Would a member explain to me what these marks mean, please? Why the two markings on each barrel? I suspect the barrels are M/F.

There is no answer, of course, to why Mr. Billings ordered those chokes for a short-barreled gun more appropriate to field than blind.

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Hey King, I'm at work and just glanced at this, and not exactly sure if my speculation is correct, but think 17. over 18. indicated initial proof dimension before reaming bore size for final proof.


All good,
Jim Wilbourne
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king, interesting marking, each pair of # indicates the bore diameter vs choke. My guess is that the gun was rechoked at the factory for some reason, maybe to meet requirements in pattern. Is there more than 1 set of proof marks on the gun? below is what the marks are in inches

left barrel
17.6 - 18.2 = .692 - .7165 = .0245 = ??
17.7 - 18.4 = .6968 - .724 = .0272 = imp mod

right barrel
17.9 - 18.2 = .7047 - .7165 = .0118 = skt-2
17.9 - 18.4 = .7047 - .724 = .0193 = mod

Jim


I learn something every day, and a lot of times it's that what I learned the day before was wrong

james-l #114091 09/23/08 03:15 PM
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FYI - #s on gun are of course in mm; James converted them to inches above.

Here is one of several choke tables available for reference:

http://www.hallowellco.com/choke_chart.htm


It is a bit unusual to have two complete sets of #s on each barrel.
Is chamber still 2.625"?
If not, maybe it was re-choked when it was lengthened to 2.75"?





Always looking for small bore Francotte SxS shotguns.
Randall #114117 09/23/08 07:08 PM
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Randall and James, the gun is so original I took the 2 5/8 marks for chamber as gospel. They measure precisely 2 3/4.

Markings on the flats from the breech are AF under crown in circle, crown and circle enclosing ELG, 12C inside the diamond, what appears to be arrow pointing toward muzzle, two fancy capital letters appear to be E and L, a star over S, Siemens Martin Steel, and a tiny JV with underscore (maybe the inspector).

Looking more closely on the barrels in front of the numbers above (they're as sharp as from the factory) are definitely stamped wavy lines like gulls flying in a steep turn, the largest 1/8-inch long. Maybe the markings closest to them are what I've got, re-choked barrels, eh?

I like the gun.

Last edited by King Brown; 09/23/08 08:03 PM.
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Sounds like a beautiful Francotte King.

As you know, the only way to truly determine what the chokes in your 2 barrels measure today is to measure them w/ a micrometer, or 'mike' them.

I'm sure you've also seen this before, but just in case:

http://damascus-barrels.com/Belgian_All_Proofmarks.html






Always looking for small bore Francotte SxS shotguns.
Randall #114133 09/23/08 09:15 PM
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So maybe Mr. Billings was an Easterner with a brush gun, not one choked for pheasants and ducks in the open American West.

I am grateful for members' assistance and marvel always at the generosity of this board. Now, to the patterning board.

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I think those wavy lines match in places the fancy EL of proof, so re-proofed and re-choked.

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I do seem to recall from one of my proof articles that at some point in time, exact dates not recalled, that the Belgium proof house stamped bore dia at both provisonal & final proof, so these had two bore stamps. I don't recall it applying to the choke markings though, but am operating from memory right now.


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Originally Posted By: King Brown
My mid-range" 1899 Francotte 12-gauge 26-inch barrels (uncut) muzzle measurements indicate Modified/Full to me.

The 2 5/8-chambered gun was "Made for C.W. Billings" (on the rib with gold bar)) and ordered through VLD "U.S. agents New York."

The "Francotte chokebore" markings under "choke" on the left barrel are 17.6 over 18.2 and 17.7 over 18.4.

On the right barrel are 17.9 over 18.2 and 17.9 over 18.4.

Would a member explain to me what these marks mean, please? Why the two markings on each barrel? I suspect the barrels are M/F.

There is no answer, of course, to why Mr. Billings ordered those chokes for a short-barreled gun more appropriate to field than blind.


King,

Sorry, I wasn't paying attention... It is the choke over the bore diameter. They used it from 1910-1924. After that they simply used the bore diameter.

The barrel weight should also be stamped on the barrels. Though some times it just isn't there.

Pete

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