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Joined: Apr 2002
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Sidelock
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Sidelock

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Cartridges are not held in the magazine in my 20 ga Browning Model 12 by the cartridge cutoff as I assume they should be. I can't see any obvious reason. Any ideas except shipping it off to a gunsmith like Midwest? Browning no longer services Model 12's.

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Just in case this is a help, they are not held flush with the rear end of the magazine tube like an 1100, for example. They come out about to the front end of the shell lifter. Does the gun operate properly?


> Jim Legg <

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If the Browning copies are functionally identical to the originals, I sympathize. I've got two Win m12s and as near as I've ever been able to tell, the principal activity of the cartridge "stop" is to pivot up in such a way that it can continue not doing what it doesn't do anyway. The operation of the spring-loaded stop in the Ithaca 37 is a marvel of simplicity and reliable function by comparison. Further bad news is that if you can get a shell under the stop it will probably jar loose before you even fire and cycle the bolt. Good news is the fork on the lifter has worked fine for me in performing the same function. I hope you get a better answer on why the stop doesn't stop and how to correct because I would also like to know.

jack

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It sounds like- either the arm that holds the shells in the tube is either worn or the spring that moves the arm is weak. It should not be that big of a deal for one of your local smiths to fix in a few minutes if it works like the Winchester does.

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I'd like to hear more about that spring, Jimmy? I'm sitting here with one of NRA firearm assembly books open to p. 150 (Winchester m12) and I can't find it. I've stripped both of mine several times, the cartridge stop always falls out on its own recognizance but I don't recall any springs except for the wishbone ejector in the receiver wall beside the bolt. I thought the chingus was cammed upward temporarily by a projection on the bolt.

jack

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Unless the Browning 'copy' is different from the Winchester M12, the shell placed into the magazine tube will be pushed back to a standing lug on the bottom of the breech bolt by the mag spring preassure. That will put the head of the shell just slightly underneath the front edge of the carrier. The shell stop all this time will be in the 'up' position,, not interupting the shell either going into or it's slight rear movement back out of the mag tube to that lug on the bottom of the breech bolt.
When the action is worked, the bolt goes to the rear, and allows that first shell that is against it's lug to ride along under mag spring pressure and slide up onto the carrier. At the same time the shell stop will lower and it's hook will block the next shell from exiting the mag tube while the action is open and feeding. Once the action is closed, the shell stop raises and allows the next shell to exit the tube and go back as far as that lug on the breech bolt again. No spring on the shell stop, just pivots up and down.
>
I've never had a Browning M12 copy so I don't know if they're any different in this respect. I know they made a few internal changes with this and the M42. (Maybe one of them was the 'chingus' ...!)

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I think Jim (and Kutter) nailed this right out of the gate.

The cartridge cutoff on 12s and 42s does not hold the next shell. This job is performed by a stop (or projection) on the bottom of the bolt. This stop above (and the shellplate below) serve to limit the rearward position of the cartridge that is first in line to be fed. Frankly, I think the design is praise-worthy. It is a heckuva lot faster to load vs 870s, 391s, Benellis......most anything else.

The cutoff prevents a double feed. Eightbore has noted that some competitive shooters go so far as to remove the cutoff. Doing so does not in any way prevent proper cycling of second shell for doubles.

Unless Vangulil is actually having a function problem my money is with Jim Legg - this is a non-problem.

Sam

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Thus the nomenclature: cutoff rather than stop. And of course carrier rather than lifter. And chingus in preference to thingy. Thanks Jim and Jim and Sam. Don't worry about the spring, Jimmy, where ever it got to, we don't need it now.

jack

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Thanks very much for the help.

I now see how the action works. The shells project somewhat from the magazine, but are being held in place by the bolt as they should be.

The difficulty I had shooting today with gloves on was apparently due to lack of care in making sure the projecting ends of the shells were above the carrier. Trying it now, the action works fine with the carrier below the shells.

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I bought a Browning Model 12-20ga from a guy on the web a few months back, and found that it would dump a shell out the bottom after firing a round. Apparently recoil would allow a shell in the magazine to get below the lifter/carrier. I took it to a local smith who replaced the magazine spring, which didn't fix the problem.

So, I took it back, and he ground on something till the shells stayed inside the gun like they were supposed to. I asked him about a stronger lifter/carrier spring, and he said there wasn't enough room there for a heftier spring.

I have shot a couple of boxes of shells through it since, and it seems to be working ok now.

Don't know if this is relevant to the thread, but thought I would add my experience.

Happy trails,

HHH

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