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Joined: Sep 2008
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Originally Posted By: Vol423
Here are some ideas that would interest me:
Switch-barrel rifles:
e.g. Martini .22LR and .22 Magnum
Take-down rifles, perhaps even with multiple barrel sets (Notice a pattern here)
Stalking rifles (How about take-down switch barrel ones)
Quick-detach scopes, such as claw mounts, EAW swing mounts, Kreighoff slide-off mounts
Making fitted takedown gun cases. I've made a few in my time and may have a few in-process photos. I have one in the works now for a two-barrel shotgun.


Hi Vol423, I'd really be interested to see some photos of your gun cases. I'm currently working on a Martini Cadet ELW takedown in an altered takedown shotgun case and could use some ideas.

How about a takedown switch-bbl in 17 HM2 or HMR, 22LR or 22WMR, 219 Zipper, 25-35, 7-30 Waters, 30-30 and 35/30-30? The RFs can be used with offset bores to allow the CF firing pin to strike the RF edge while the 30-30-size extractor will extract the RF cases adequately from the offset bore.

My Martini Cadet has a quarter-rib with QD Kimber rings to facilitate the takedown, will show pics when closer to completion. These rings return to zero within 0.5 MOA and are quite svelte, providing a pleasing appearance along with their superior functionality.

Meanwhile welcome to the site and don't hesitate to contribute!
Regards, Joe


You can lead a man to logic but you can't make him think. NRA Life since 1976. God bless America!
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Set Trigger glad to see you here.You will not have all the JERKS here. I really don't know how some get dressed in the morning in the morning over there.They have such a big head they need a engine hoist standing by.It's just too bad it is not filled with smarts. HOWEVER there is some nice great people there that stay for there own reasons. Whitey

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OK Michael, here goes...

I too don't qualify as young or in active military duty. Started shooting as a kid in Scouts and the local rifle range, and have been a birdhunter here in MN and surrounding states since the mid-1960s. I was an odd-ball in my teens as I carried a side-by-side instead of a pump. As of late enjoy the pointing dog work more than the shooting, and often times just handle the dogs for my father (age 78).

My in-laws convinced me to try deer hunting a dozen or so years ago. I do enjoy it, at least for the few days while we can't run the dogs on birds. My rifle is the deer hunting counterpart to the 870... at least it is wood and blued metal in a somewhat unique caliber. I don't particilarily like to shoot it at targets as it pounds my shoulder, but of course I never notice the kick when killing a whitetail.

I have always liked the looks of a Ruger No 1... and I have drooled over pictures of the Dakota Model 10. Some day!...

I do have several questions about a handed-down brown rifle I own and will start a new thread.

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Originally Posted By: Michael Petrov

Not much in the book on the makers of single-shot rifles.

I been involved with Schuetzen rifles for more than thirty years and there are some fine people in the sport. You should not let a few people discourage you. Find folks in your area who shoot Schuetzen rifles and join them.


Mike,
I'm sure that there are fine people in all shooting sports and there will always be a few that are problems. These problem people will not discourage me from shooting.

I still shoot and enjoy every hour of it in spite of them. The problem with shooting there Schuetzen Matches is that you have to be a member to shoot there events, I don't have a problem with that as I believe that shooters should support the clubs that put on the events.

My problem is I just cant bring myself to financially support, or support in any way a club in which the problem people are some of the officers, and after seeing the way some of them disrespect there members it's just not in me to be a member or a part of something like that.

I have always shot in matches because it was fun and enjoyable, I'm an old guy and don't know how many fun days I have left, so at my age I realize very well that if it's not fun, don't waste time doing it.

Being that I don't enjoy rubbing elbows or associating with the type of people some of these officers are, it's best I back away, if there attitude changes towards members I think I and some others that are on this forum will get back at shooting there events.

I'm sorry I said anything about the problems they seem to have as this is not the place to talk about such things. I tend to get carried away when talking about things like this so will not say any more other than lets get back to talking about guns.

I always try to find some good in most everything so I look at it this way, because of there "good old boy" attitude this forum has grown and will continue to grow, and the more forums we have the better off we are.

Sorry to say that I really don't have much interest in Bolt guns, to many moving parts I guess, but it sounds like an interesting book for those that are interested in them.

Now how bout a book on Traditional Single Shots.
Set Trigger

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Set Trigger,

I understand how you feel and if it's not fun why do it. I have never been very competitive so I'm not much of a match shooter, enjoying solitaire bench shooting. I've written a few things about single-shot rifles such as a paper-patch article, an article about Mr. Niedner's Schuetzen rifle, a Maynard long-range and few others but don't think you will see a single-shot book with my name on it.

I wrote this several years ago (June 2000) for the ASSRA, I had all but forgotten about it until Terry reminded me after I told someone at the Vegas show I did not know of an article about shooting a Pope rifle.

DEAR ROBERT

by

Michael Petrov



Thanks for your letter of February 30th. The pictures show the rifle and tools fine. You have a Ballard rifle made by Marlin with a barrel made by Harry M. Pope when he was located in Hartford, Connecticut. I think that it’s swell that your grandfather left you this rifle. The note from me with your grandfather’s papers was written 30 or so years ago when I just got started playing with Schuetzen rifles. Then I was asking for his help. I even have copies of a few of the targets that your Grandfather shot with this rifle.


First a bit of history on the man who made your rifle. H. M. Pope was one of the best if not the best barrel-maker of lead bullet single-shot Schuetzen rifles. He started making barrels commercially in 1894 at Hartford, Connecticut. These barrels are stamped “Rifled by H.M. Pope Hartford Conn.”. In 1901 Stevens Rifle Co. got him to go to work for them, these barrels are marked “Stevens-Pope”. In 1905 he quit Stevens and set up a shop in San Francisco which was destroyed by an earthquake before he ever opened its doors. Form 1908 until his retirement he worked at Jersey City, New Jersey; these barrels are marked H.M. Pope. Jersey City barrels will also have the date marked on the bottom. Your barrel number 373 was made in Hartford. If you look under the forearm you will see the number 373, and this same number will be found on the false-muzzle and the bullet starter. The other numbers under the forearm are rifling code used for the rifling machine setting. Your rifle most likely has what is call gain twist rifling. What this means is that the rate of twist increases as the bullet approaches the muzzle. The reason for this was to start the bullet out slower with less deformation and also to help seal the gases behind the bullet.

Your rifle is a Breech-Muzzle Loader, which means a bullet can be loaded from either the muzzle or the breech. To assist in loading from the muzzle, a false muzzle was fitted to your rifle. The false muzzle is a small piece of the barrel that is cut off, then reattached with four tightly fitted pins, before the bore is reamed and rifled. The barrel and the false muzzle are then reamed and rifled at the same time. To load the rifle the bullet is set base down into the false-muzzle, then the bullet starter placed over it and the bullet driven down the bore for a couple of inches. The bullet starter was then removed and a loading rod was used to seat the bullet just in front of the chamber where a loaded case with powder and primer would be placed. The false muzzle protects the muzzle of the rifle and insures that the bullet enters the rifling straight. After seating and before shooting this false-muzzle is removed. Loading the bullet from the muzzle engraves the rifling on the bullet and scrapes the fouling clean in the bore so the fouling will not accumulate. If the loading rod is not with the rifle or you break or misplace the one you have you can make a new one. Place a case on the right side of the barrel in relation to the chamber then about 1/16” in front of it place a bullet. In the area just in front of the bullet you will see what looks like a fine scratch mark. This is where Pope marked the barrel for the length of loading rod.

I am pleased that you want to shoot the rifle and I will help in any way I can.
First let me say that with care you can pass this rifle on to your grandson. I know that you are a shooter and have cast bullets for years. I am going to cover ground that you are probably well aware of, so please don’t think that I am talking down to you. You can shoot this rifle as much as you want, lead bullets will never wear it out. I will tell you how I do things, as you meet other shooters they will share their ways and from each you will learn something. More damage can be done with the cleaning rod or by not paying attention at the range than when shooting. If you do not have a one piece cleaning rod of steel you need to get one with a button or jag tip. Make sure that the cleaning rod is not coated, or made of aluminum or brass. All these will let fouling imbed into the rod and act as an abrasive. I think they still make the Belding & Mull cleaning rod which works well because it has a small diameter handle and will clear the comb of the stock.



Your rifle is .33 caliber and uses .32-40 cartridge cases. If there is not a cleaning rod guide in the set of tools, take a .32-40 case and drill out the primer pocket and the back of the case until the cleaning rod, with patch, will pass through the hole. When cleaning your rifle place the case in the chamber and put a cotton patch with Hoppe’s No.9  on the end of the rod making sure that the false-muzzle is in place run your rod until it touches your finger of the other hand that you are holding over the end of the muzzle, then withdraw the rod. After a day of shooting that creates a dirty bore I take one patch that has Hoppe’s on it. I wad it up and push this in front of my cleaning patch and let this with all the fouling fall out the end. You will find that two or three patches ran back and forth once are all that is needed so the bore will be like new. If you are going to store the rifle for several months or longer run a patch with RIG  (Rust Inhibitor Grease) on it to coat and protect the bore. I know that there are many cleaning products on the market but just use Hoppe’s No. 9 and RIG. They work and will not hurt your bore. Placing the case you drilled the back out on in the chamber during cleaning will prevent any wear to the chamber from the cleaning rod. Always clean the rifle from the breech. Pope was so concerned about the chamber and rifling at the end that he chambered the rifle first then made a false-chamber and rifled the barrel with this in place.

Now would be a good time to explain what all the tools do. The Re-De capper is used to removed the fired primer and to seat a new one. Care should be used to make sure that the pin is pressing on the fired primer and not the bottom of the case as this pin is easily bent. One way to make things more consistent is to use only one case and reload this same case for each shot. The powder measure with this rifle is called a “Pope Loading Flask” or duplex powder measure. The one in your set is one that is not found very often, a duplex made by Wilkinson. It was found years ago that a small charge of smokeless powder next to the primer, then the main charge of black powder on top of the smokeless, makes for cleaner shooting. The tool that looks like a cartridge case on the end of a handle is a breech seater. When you load from the breech the bullet is placed into the seater then the bullet is pushed into the rifling just in front of the chamber. Next is the Pope bullet mould: this is called a double cutoff type mould because the bullet is poured from the nose and the base plate is connected to the nose plate so they swing away together. It is made this way so that the base of the bullet is square without sprue cutoff. Also any imperfections will be in the nose of the bullet, and closer to the bullets center axis, where they are less likely to upset the balance of the bullet as it spins. The other tool is a lubricating pump used to put the lube in the grooves of the bullet.


Casting Bullets:

Your Pope mould is made for your rifle. The bullet is designed to be shot as cast and no re-sizing is needed. This is a tapered two diameter bullet the front bands are bore diameter with the rear bands groove diameter. The mould must never be struck with anything. Get yourself a pair of welding gloves and open the sprue plate by hand, if the bullet does not fall out, rap the back of the handle with a piece of wood (I use an old wooden hammer handle). For muzzle-loading start with a bullet 1 part tin to 35 parts lead, and for breech-seating start with a bullet 1 part tin to 20 parts lead. You’re shooting one of the best rifles ever made so don’t guess at the content of some scrap lead. Use new lead and tin. Every rifle is different, some will shoot a soft bullet, and others will require a hard one. If there is any loading data or other information on the targets your grandfather shot it may list the weight of the bullet and you can experiment to find the same weight. In regard to lead pots, for me less is more. I am using a Lee bottom-pour pot, one of the least expensive on the market. This pot gets hotter than others and works best with a lead-tin mixture. I have found that bullets that would be considered cast too hot and are a little frosty seem to produce the best bullets with sharp, square, grease grooves and have a very small rejection rate. I weigh all bullets and any that are not + - .2 grain are rejected. When the mould is put away I cover all surfaces with some Hoppe’s No. 9. Before casting again I clean the mould with electric motor cleaner (do this outside for ventilation) One thing I do that helps to speed up the casting is to warm the mould over a small gas flame. You might want to try experimenting with some other mould before the Pope to get the hang of things. Two places on your Pope mould you will see the word WAX stamped beside a hole. When casting have a small amount of beeswax rolled out about the size of pencil lead and every so often put a little wax in the holes to keep the mould from galling.



Lubricating Bullets:

There must be as many lubes as there are shooters of Schuetzen rifles and everyone has his own one that is just right for his rifle. There are two ways to lube the bullets; One is to use the Pope-Lubricator, the other is to pan-lube. My method is pan lubing. What this means is that I stand 50 bullets up in a plastic sandwich container and pour hot lube around them until all the grooves are covered. When the lube hardens at room temperature I push them out with my fingers. The lube I have used for over twenty years is Alox 218F and pure yellow Beeswax 50-50 by weight. I melt this in a double boiler. My double boiler is an old electric skillet that I fill with an inch or so of water. I set the pan with the lube in the water in order to melt the lube. This method prevents the lube from getting too hot and being ruined. Just as the lube is melting I use a hair drier to heat up the bullets as this helps to keep the lube from pulling away from cold bullets. This Alox-Beeswax lube works well in the cooler temperatures that we have here in Alaska. When the temperature is above 75 degrees this is not a good lube. There are many lubes on the market that you can try. The other method is to use the Pope lubricator. I have never used these much as they are messy and time consuming. The removable die is made for only one bullet and must be changed when you use a different bullet. If you go to a very soft lube you may want to try the pump. There are two ways to load the Pope lubricator, cast the lube into sticks that can be inserted into the pump body or melt the lube and pour it directly into the pump.

Going to the Range:

Regardless of how you decided to shoot the rifle, either by breech-loading or muzzle-loading, and before you leave the house tie one end of a string on the false muzzle, then tie the other end to your rear sight. When you get to the range and are going to muzzle-load, tie the string to the loading bench and if you're breech loading take off the false muzzle and put it in your shooting box. You are doing all this so that you will not shoot the rifle with the false muzzle still attached to the barrel. If you shoot with the false muzzle attached the bullet will pull it off and fling it down range and possible ruin it. Many people have done this at one time or another. Pope himself made this mistake. The false muzzle has a pin with a small ball on it. This is called a binder pin and if the false muzzle is left on, the little ball will get in front of the sight and you can not see to shoot. The ball will have a groove cut into it for inserting a disk to block your view when using a scope.

I would suggest that the first few times you shoot your Pope rifle you find someplace by yourself to shoot. If you go to a public range find a time when very few people are there. As soon as you pull out that fine old rifle you will have an audience who will want to ask questions. When this happens STOP whatever you are doing and don’t start again until your full attention is on loading and shooting. When your attention is back on the job at hand START OVER.

Things that can go wrong when not paying attention would be for you to start a bullet into the muzzle and not seat it all the way down in front of the chamber. If you were to load a case and shoot, the barrel would bulge or fail where the bullet was and the barrel would be ruined. In a moment of distraction it is easy to double-charge your case with smokeless powder. The average charge generates around 30,000 PSI, a double charge about 60,000 PSI . Your Ballard will not take this kind of pressure and the rear of the barrel and the action will fail. Two things that it pays to get into the habit of doing are to always turn your primed case over and look at the primer before throwing the powder charge, (in this way you can never double charge). Another good habit is always to look into the chamber before loading the case to make sure that the bullet is just in front of the chamber and not up the barrel somewhere. I would also be remiss if I did not bring up the matter of safety. Never go to the shooting line with out your safety classes and hearing protection. A loose primer pocket, old brass, worn or broken firing pin, it does not take an over load for you to end up with a face full of powder and gas. When you leave the bench or go down range make sure that the action is open and the CHAMBER IS EMPTY.

Breech-Loading :
When breech loading make sure that your breech-loading tool is placing the bullet in the proper position. After you have breech-seated a bullet for the first time take a rod from the muzzle end and push the bullet back out to see if the rifling is engraved the full length of the bullet. If it isn’t the bullet needs to be seated deeper. The two powders that I use are IMR 4227 and SR 4759. 4227 is a small grain, fast-burning powder that works well in my Schuetzen rifles of caliber .32-40 and .33-47. Start out with 13.0 grains of 4227 and no wad. I have found that a wad is not needed when using 4227, but is needed when using large grain powder like 4759. Looking at the base of a recovered lead bullet that has been shot with 4759 and without a wad shows a lot of deformation of the base by the powder grains. The same base when fired with 4227 looks sand blasted but not deformed. Wads work well in some rifles and not in others so give them a try. Wads have been made out of lots of different materials such as, postal card stock, milk cartons, felt, and fiber just to name a few. I have had the best luck with 1/6” and 1/8” cork. You will want to use the duplex measure when shooting with black powder and muzzle-loading, but for breech-loading and smokeless powder get yourself a good modern powder measure. I use a Redding that is very consistent. I use Remington number 2 1/2 pistol primers because the older shooters said they were less harsh on the bore and they give uniform ignition. When you place a loaded case in the chamber make sure that you do it the same each time. I find that making a small line on the base of the case with a file, then lining this up each time with the extractor cut works well.

Muzzle Loading:

With the false-muzzle on the rifle place a bullet base down on top with the bullet starter over the top of this. Now with one sharp downward thrust with the palm of your hand seat the bullet. Remove the bullet starter and use the seating rod to push the bullet the rest of the way down the bore. Remove the rod slowly so as not to pull the bullet back up the bore. Remove the false muzzle, look into the chamber and make sure the bullet is just in front of the chamber. Load your case and fire your shot. Have I told you that the Ballard must never be cocked before you open the action? If you were to do this the sear notch would be broken or damaged. After you shoot remove the fired case, stand the rifle up, and before putting on the false-muzzle, be sure to clean the muzzle of any fouling. Also, check to be sure that the false muzzle is clean and the pins have a little lube on them. Pope suggested bullet lube, I use a little RIG. Muzzle loading and black powder go together. I use a priming charge of 4 grains of 4759 and 34.5 grains of Goex 2F Black. You might want to try the new Cartridge grade of powder they are now producing. When using black powder the case must be full and you will need a wad, I have found a cork wad the best. Extra care must be taken cleaning the barrel when shooting black powder. Black powder is corrosive, if the fouling is left in the bore it will damage or ruin the barrel. Any of the water base commercial made products will work fine, I use a little liquid soap and water and run the first two patches with this on them, then follow with the Hoppies and rig.

At The Bench:

A solid rest is very important for fine shooting. I use a rifle rest with a flat sandbag. I believe they call these Brick Bags. I rest my barrel on the bag making sure to push the rifle forward until the forearm just touches the bag. When the rifle recoils after every shot I can return the rifle to the same place for the next shot. The rear bag is called a rabbit ear bag. I set up the rifle and adjust the rest so that I just have to squeeze the rear bag a little to get the sights lined up on target. I try to hold the rifle with my cheek just touching the stock and my left arm laying on the bench parallel to the rifle and holding the rear bag. If you are sighting in the rifle to shoot offhand then rest the rifle on the forearm in the area of the palm rest base. With the rifle set up and ready to fire I cock the hammer. Then I place my left thumb between the hammer and the firing pin and I pull the rear trigger until it sets (you can feel the click). When shooting from rest the set trigger is set so just a bit more that a touch fires the rifle, when shooting offhand I like a tad more resistance. The first few shots from a clean bore may not go into the group. Every rifle is different some will start shooting to the same spot only after two are three shots with some it takes many more. When you first start shooting don’t adjust your sights, just shot until they settle down into a group then adjust your scope. The best advice I can give you about shooting from the bench is to do the same thing for every shot.

The Groups:

Much has been written about the shooting qualities of a Pope rifle both fact and fiction. Pope himself guaranteed his rifles to shoot a 10 shot 3" groups at 200 yards under average conditions. It would not only be unfair but very discouraging to see only the best groups published without some overall idea of what to expect. Breech-loading with smokeless powder you should expect an average of one minuet-of-angle groups. This means at 100 yards you should be getting 1" groups and at 200 yards 2". It does not take much of a wind to steer these slow moving bullets off course. Experienced shooters who can judge the wind set match-winning records.

With A Scope:

The Fecker scope that is with the rifle mounts on the two dovetail blocks already on the barrel. Before you mount the scope on the gun remove the metal end caps, point the scope at the sky and adjust the rear eye piece until the cross wires are clear and sharp to your eye. After mounting the scope on the rifle and before shooting set up your rifle in the rest with the action open and bore- sight the rifle by looking through the bore and moving the rifle until you can see the target. Without moving the rifle turn the external adjustments until the crosswires are on the center of the target. The next step is to remove any parallax. What I mean by this is with the rifle held fast look into the scope at the target and move you head back and forth. If the crosswires move on the target then you need to loosen the jam nut in the center of the scope and move the adjustment back and forth until the crosswires do not move on the target. When shooting at different ranges this will have to be done each time. Be sure to keep note of the setting. Newer scopes like Lyman and Unertl have this adjustment in the front lens it is marked in yards. These target scopes recoil back out of battery when you shoot. The first thing to do after shooting is to slide your finger along the top of the barrel and return the scope to battery.

Well Robert, I guess that about covers what I can tell you. I would recommend that you join the American Single Shot Rifle Association. They publish a newsletter six times a year and through the newsletter you will meet others who have an interest in these fine old Schuetzen rifles. If you take to the Schuetzen Rifle game and want to start shooting in matches you might consider building a new rifle. Saving the Pope for those special times when you want to connect to the past when the Schuetzen was King.

Sincerely Yours,

Michael


MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014




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Michael,
That was an unbelievable read, I cant remember ever reading anything that detailed. It was GREAT.

I happen to have a H.M. Pope S&W Single Shot and some targets that he shot in 1913. I'm going to print this out and re-read it a few more times.

You mentioned that Pope guaranteed his rifles to shoot a 10 shot 3" group at 200 yds., I'm sure you can answer this question, what was the size of the 10 ring on the 200 yd. target at that time, just curious, I would think that the 3" group would be all 10's. The Pope target that I have for the S&W Single Shot shows 55 Shots at 50 yds in about 1", the 10 ring on the 50 yd target at that time I believe was 3.36", more than good enough to shoot perfect scores at 50 yds.
Thanks again for such a great article.
ST

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Michael
Thanks for this article, I been trying to get a hold of it for some time but no such luck until now, I did not know it was you who did it, now it is printed and stored and I will sure re-read from time to time.

Michael

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There is another way to increase readership ---- The most popular articles in the ASSRA Journal and the SSX has always been the how to/gunshithing/tinkering articles. I got this info from Brett Boyd (Single Shot Exchange) and John Campbell of the Journal. I have been approached by individuals asking if I could help this site establish a smithing forum. I indicated that this would possibly require a further expense for a funsmithing only forum . Of course, all smithing articles could be seperated from other articles if there was an icon that could be attached. Feed back welcomed.



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Ken the forum is already great. But if there was a way to do something like that It would be awsum IMO.Whitey

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I'll second Whitey! The idea of gunsmithing how to's, or gunsmithing kinks, like the old Broiwnells books, is a great one!
I've got a couple of Leonard Bronells books, and I refer to them often, or just read them for fun!

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