doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Help Identifying proof marks on a French Gun

Hello, I am fairly new to the forum and to French guns. I have wanted one for a while and I came across this one. The stock is broken at the wrist but that is alright as I have restocked guns before and enjoy doing it. My question is,can anyone help interpret the proof marks for me. As far as I can tell it is double proofed.
Basic description-Box lock with side plates. Engraved game scenes all over it. Floral pattern on the top. 27 1/2 inch barrels, extractors, double triggers, prince of whales grip, and a hi bird butt pad patented 192?
Proof marks say-
Right Barrel- Canon de surete, Garne? Double Prreu, Canon Fanget, 65, 18.4, G, double proof marks from st Ettienne
Left Barrel- Quality Super Bure?, Agier Inexplosible, Crochet Encastre, M&P?, Double proof St Ettienne marks, and 18.4, also a stamp with an old looking soldier with shield and something written above that I cant make out.

The area around the lug is marked- 65, Choke Rectefie Marsot, crown with PT under it, Fermeture Integrale, two crowns with a v under each one, "Spirobloc", Portee Garante, and a dragon riding on top of an arrow.
The water table on the action has pt with a crown over it and a serial number of 65 marked on the action, stock, barrels, forearm.
It is written in gold lettering on the trigger gaurd Gatimel Marseille. I was told it was a 12 bore, with 2 1/2" chambers, but I am wondering if it is actually a 16ga. Don't mind either way.
Any help would be appreciated. I have attached pictures below.

Well you probably already know this but 65 on the barrel is 2 1/2", and is the chamber length, and 16.4 converts to .6456 .
So a 16 is a good guess.

Very interesting marks. In 1885 Parliament cancelled obligatory proof in France and I think obligatory proof wasn't passed back into law until 1960, becoming effective in 1962. So I would say most of the stamps are advertising or an attempt to persuade a hunter or shooter that this longarm will pass the test of time, but a very interesting fire breathing dragon on an arrow. At 18.4mm it would be a 12 bore. Also sideplate engraved boxlock. I wonder what the "Crown" over "V"s are?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

The more I look it must be a 12 bore. It has 18.4 marked on each barrel which I believe equates to a 12 bore.

According to Wirnsberger it was an accidental mis-wording of the law which did away with the obligatory proof in 1885, & thus made it voluntarily. It seems though the French went merrily along in continuing to have their guns proofed. the Crown/PT was a smokeless proof performed with Powder T which was introduced about 1901, at least after 1900. I do not find any reference to those Crown/V marks in French proof either. The other marks would tend to indicate proof from 1901-1923.

The only proof I have seen that looks like the crown with v is an english proof. I can't find any other marks though that would indicate british proofing. I have never seen a dragon like that either. One of the marks looks like a soldier with a spear and shield as well.

I don't think I've ever seen a French double that wasn't proofed at either St Etienne or Paris, so the fact proof was not "obligatory" does not seem to have made much difference--unless you happen to find that rare exception (which I've never seen): a French gun without proofmarks.

Some of the photos are a bit blurry, and although some French barrel flats contain enough writing to constitute a short novel, this one comes close to being the all-time champion--and includes some expressions I've never seen. Here's what I can tell you--and as Raimey said, a lot of the stuff on the flats is basically "advertising":

canon de surete--safety barrels
double epreuve--double proof
canon Fanget--Fanget made the barrels (I've seen Fanget barrels on a lot of French guns)
qualite super whatever (can't make out the last word)--super quality something
acier inexpolisble--the steel won't blow up
crochet encastre--has to do with the type of action
choke rectifie--regulated chokes (but they don't tell you what they are; never do on French guns)
fermeture integrale--integral closing (has to do with the lockup, but that's one I've never seen before)
portee garantie--the range is guaranteed (but they don't tell you what the range is)
Crown over a V--not a standard French proofmark; any guesses, anyone?
Spirobloc--either has something to do with the action, perhaps like "Helicobloc" which is seen on many French guns; if so, it's sort of like a Scott spindle in reverse--or else designed by Spiro Agnew
Gatimel--we had one of those show up recently. Big sporting goods store in Marseille, apparently still in business. Not the maker of the gun.
I have never seen the dragon mark before.

The only really important things of all the above are: 2 1/2", double proof, and French.

2-piper you are correct on the mis-wording. I too think all French guns experienced proof even though the politicians didn't think it too important but the makers realized the importance of proof, whether obligatory or voluntary, because the industry as a whole was at stake. Still no idea on the "Crown" over "V". What are the marks opposite the "Crown" over "V"s on right tube flats and what are the marks just forward of the flats on the tubes near the lower rib?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

There is also a mark with a soldier holding a shield and sword with words over it. I will try and take some clearer shots of the proofs and repost them here. Do you think this gun is from the 1920s? It is very well built and the metal to metal and wood to metal fit was very good. I know it is no Best gun, but it does not look like a field grade either. Looks like it will be a very fun gun to restore and shoot. I don't think it has been shot a lot. The bluing is not worn, and most of the case coloring is intact, even in areas where handling marks should be.

Larry,

Thanks for the translation. I was hoping either you or Ted would take a jab at it. Some of it had me going in circles. I agree about Gatimel.

I know the Belgians could register a trade mark and often did. I assume the same was true for the French. I have never seen an attempt to correlate all the French trade marks. Even Who is Who for the French guns does not attempt the subject. So, either you know the trademark or you are left confused.

wburns,

You can go here and try to find some of those trademarks:
http://littlegun.be/arme%20francaise/a%20accueil%20arme%20francaise%20gb.htm

You may also want to drop Alain an email to see if he can help. There is a broad group who will be able to see the images that way.

Pete