doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Ithaca Classic Doubles

This is apparently one of the Beschi guns assembled from ICD parts. At least it looks like an Ithaca NID to me.

http://www.cabelas.com/cabelas/en/conten...erarchyId=11653

Best,

Mike

Tom, could you PLEASE stick to "apples to apples"? You keep tossing oranges in your comparisons. I'm pretty sure your 3 barrel set has 2 sets of 20ga barrels and a set of 16ga. I know where there are a couple of those cheaper than that, but since we're only comparing to ICD's with ONE set of barrels--right?--then let's compare to Repro 20's with ONE set of barrels. Average asking price, from dealers, is somewhere in the mid-$4K range. By all means, check gunsinternational to verify. I only found ONE 20ga Repro priced over $5K; 10 or 11 under that. I don't think you'd have any problem buying a very nice one for $4,000. Maybe a little less. More, for sure, for a 28ga.

Other than you, I don't think I've heard of anyone spending $2100 to cure a Parker Repro SST problem. Usually, when you ask on a website such as this, you will certainly find people that have had problems with Repros with SST's--most of which are usually solved fairly quickly and simply, often just disassembly and cleaning.

And as for spending money after you buy the gun, from Dan's post above, sounds to me like you'd better be prepared to shell out some $ to a decent doublegun smith if you buy one of the 470 series, Italian parts ICD's.

Larry, it's obvious that you love Parker Repros and I hate them. The reciprocal seems to be true of Ithaca Classic Doubles. This is what makes the world go around and gun interest diverse.
You're not going to win me over. I don't think Repros are a bargain and would never buy another one.
Incidentally, I've been around long enough to send my gun to people who should be able to fix problem guns. I don't want to mention names. However, a well known restoration company had the gun twice. A trigger expert of national reputation had the gun for seven months after which he sent the gun back to me and wouldn't except even the shipping costs on the condition that he never see the gun again. It was the first trigger problem in 24 years that he couldn't fix. Another company (not Reagent but did work for them) had the gun three times @$175 a crack and the gun still fan fired. The trigger couldn't be fixed.
At this point, I turned to Howard Miller. He was 87 and his kid brother 85 at the time. I learned the history of the Miller Single Trigger from Mr. Miller....very interesting.
The 470xxx guns were not the total disaster that you perceive. There are many fine examples of them including some owned by friends of mine. Steve Lamboy had some quality men working for him as you know. They didn't specialize in building junk. Unfortunately, some guns of less than perfect quality did hit the market. The Beschi kits sold by Galazan don't help the situation. They all have #470xxx serial numbers and will, no doubt, be unfairly be laid at ICD's doorstep.
To me, a faulty trigger is a much bigger concern than less than perfect wood fit. With a bad trigger, the gun is useless. There are plenty of examples of Repros with bad single triggers and you know this. In fairness, the early Miller triggers put in ICD's all had problems including mine. The difference is that Ithaca fixed the problem by bringing the work in-house. I have tens of thousands of rounds through my two ICD's with single triggers and they work flawlessly. The wood to metal and metal to metal fit is what you would expect with any custom gun and I have never heard anyone dispute this. I own three others that were not made specifically for me but are of excellent quality, all 4Es, #471xxx,and were NIB.
Dan's business is fixing guns. I don't think he's much into "wellness" visits. He seems to be very knowledgeable and can speak for himself.
Your advise to people wanting Parker Repros is to buy them with double triggers....mine to people wanting an ICD is to buy a #471xxx.
Let's agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Of the two, I would buy a Parker Repro. Don't get me wrong though, I think that Steve is a good guy, just maybe he didn't have the funding and the fact that the Ithaca Gun just isn't as popular as Parker, Fox and Smith, to pull off what he wanted accomplish.

tim

Far as I know, the Parker Repro has the same ST problems as the original Parker with a ST. They used the same ST. Only difference is, you see a far higher % of ST Repros than you do originals with ST's. But lots and lots of people shoot ST Repros with no problems at all; most that have problems get them solved pretty easily and quickly.

Yes, I certainly advise DT's on a Repro. Perhaps the incidence of ST problems on Repros--given the fact that there are lots more of them than ICD's--is about the same as the incidence of problems with 470 series ICD's? In which case, a general warning to buyers about both potential problems seems well warranted.

OK, I took orders for and delivered Steve's excellent guns for the duration, from prototype to the last destructive price increase. Maybe some of you experts can explain how we are to identify the difference between the "early Italian guns in the 470,000 range that are not as good as the" "later Krupp barrel guns in the 471,000 range, which are the good ones" from the "later Beschi guns that are in the 470,000 range which are not so good at all". Which serial number range are the guns with the Dutch parts in, which no one seems to talk about? Are the Dutch guns good or bad and what serial number range are they in? Strange that I didn't think to take pictures of the barrel flats and water tables of every gun I delivered. The dealers know less about these guns than the customers. It isn't our fault. We thought they were all the same except the odd badly fitted gun. Unfortunately, we don't know where the badly fitted guns were made nor can we remember what the serial numbers were.

When the switch was made to Krupp barrels/Dutch receivers, I believe ICD jumped into the 471,000 range. They did not produce 1,000 guns from Italian parts, so I believe there were a lot of unused 470xxx SN's. Tom may know more, but that's how I understand it.

The Beschi guns are real easy. They don't say "Ithaca Classic Doubles". And you wouldn't have been delivering them for Steve. They were rejects and had nothing to do with ICD, other than having been rejected (or maybe never received, after they switched to Krupp barrels/Dutch receivers) by ICD.

Bill,
The differentiations are as Larry states with the Beschi complication. Italian parts= #470xxx. Krupp and Dutch =#471xxx. Beschi's are serialized in the early 470 range and are easy to spot because ICD is xxx out or not to be found. Many prefer the #471 series guns for parts they believe superior to the #470's and more experienced workmanship. I like the #470's and believe that engraving is better and truer to the classic Ithaca(patterns were changed for the 471 guns). 470 guns need be judged individually due to the ICD learning curve. Apprx. 250 of each Serial # range were made for a total of about 500+ real ICD guns.
Bob Jurewicz

I do believe I know where a most excellent NIB ICD in 28 gauge (470178) can be found for a rediculously low price. $11 to Dave

http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=160828884

Im looking at that 28 gauge on GB. Do you guys feel its priced at market hi or low? I see it has been reduced 1000.00 since listed, Did the seller start to high or are they hard to move if need be? How is the quality compaired with Parker repro's. The PR have a great track record for heavy use with no major breakage. PR continue to go up each year. If I buy the ICD listed ...I would want to use it lightly and be able to sell if need be without a heavy loss...thanks all Kenny SXS ohio...(-: