doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Pedersoli percussion/ML doubles, comments?

It looks to me that we have two really good threads about m/l shotguns going at the same time. This is all to the good. IMHO "front feeder" shotguns do not always receive the attention that they deserve.

Mike makes a couple of good points.

First, fire hazard. Any black powder load poses at least a bit more of a fire hazard than most smokeless powder loads because b/p, being less efficient than smokeless powder and thus requiring more powder per load, tends to generate more unburned and burning powder as ejecta. Whether this additional fire hazard is significant or not may be a matter that has to do with specific situations. This consideration pertains to both m/l and cartridge guns.

Perhaps a matter that has more to do with fire hazard than powder is wadding. For example, I have seen people use shredded paper as wadding. This stuff works well but it also can generate smouldering "confetti" that can be very bad news in dry conditions. Similar problems can result from the use of felt or fiber wads that are placed directly over a powder charge without an OP wad. This consideration, too, pertains to both m/l and cartridge guns. It also pertains to both b/p and smokeless powder loads.

You also make a good point about "feeding" c/b shotguns. These guns often operate under somewhat different "rules" than "choked" shotguns. In my experience, c/b shotguns, whether b/p or smokeless or m/l or b/l, tend not to like being "pushed too hard" if maximum pattern density is to be achieved, especially when plastic wads are not used ( as they most likely should not be when b/p is the chosen propellant). Hard shot can help but the old saying, "Much powder, little lead, shoots fast, much spread. Little powder, much lead, shoots far, kills dead" tends to be the watchword, in this case. Velocities of around 1100 f.p.s., or less (sometimes much less), seem to work the best along with shot loads that are approximately 1/8 to 1/4 ounce heavier and at least one shot size larger than would most likely be used in choked guns.

I suspect that V. M. Starr achieved this kind of a result when he used relatively large charges of slow-burning Fg powder that most likely have helped to keep wad columns intact and shot deformation at a minimum. Of course, old V. M. tended to use choked guns, too. Thus, his overall recommendation of "bulk for bulk" loads [or, perhaps, "shading" the loads in favor of shot as has been recommended elsewhere] is probably the best way to go for c/b guns.

Also, in spite of the fact that old V. M. was m/l's "jug choke guru" he also had good things to say about c/b guns, too. There is nothing to fear from properly "set up" and used c/b guns. In fact c/b guns may be the best, overall, for most conditions and shooters. The old British saying, "Who tightens his choke lightens his [game] load" might have relevance, here. Too, c/b guns tend to work much better than choked guns when "punkin balls" or buckshot are the projectiles of choice.

Mike;
I don't believe there is any more fire hazard with a ML'r than a BL'r unless one tries to improvise the wadding with something such as newspaper or the like. Do a goggle search on V Starr & I believe you can find his little book in downloadable PDF format. It is noted he wadded with two of the overpowder card wads (.125"-.135" thk) only with no fiber or felt & then used the same heavy card as an overshot wad.

It is true that V. M. used "minimal wadding" to good effect. He also tended to load his powder and shot straight from the flask and he also lubricated his loads by spitting down the bore before seating the OP wad. These practices are definite "no-nos", today, and for good reason.

Bores that are choked and/or are in good condition can do very well with Starr's "minimalist" wad columns if loads are lubricated properly with water or other appropriate solvent (preferably from a spray- squeeze-bottle and not from placing one's head over loaded bores!). Otherwise, lubricated fiber or felt filler wads can be used to enhance load effectiveness.

Filler wad lubricants can vary from "thin" lubes like windshield washer solvent and various vegetable oils (for short-term target loads) to "thick" lubricants like Crisco-or tallow-based "bullet lubes" (for hunting loads). Filler wad thickness requirements can be a function of such bore conditions as "burn out" or just because the cranky thing just seems to "prefer" one height or composition more than others.

Thanks, Dingel and Miller. After waving several Pedersolis about for a while, I believe I will get the choked 20 that Dixie sells. They are on sale now and are choked C/IC, which will probably work for me and allow experiments with ball. If I really like the 20, I'll probably get a bigger gun later. It felt better to me than the 12, tho. The 10 is too much to lug over hill and dale--fine in a blind or a flat cornfield. But not the Coast Range or Snake River Breaks.

Points taken about improvising wadding--I won't. Tempting because I'm a cheap bastard but I don't want to set any of my buddies or their dogs on fire, let alone SoCal.

I have a 1973 Pedersoli 12 gauge. Nice upland gun, only weighs 5.5 lbs. I had to lower the comb on mine 1/2" since I couldn't adapt to the 2" dah it came from the factory with. At the same time I added a 1" thick recoil pad to increase the LOP to 15"s. About lowering the comb, with only a 1/2" it's easy to resculpter the stock without making it look odd. When I first got the gun I used toilet paper as wadding, kaboom! flaming toilet paper everywhere! luckily it had rained earlier but it sure did encourage me to get my wad order out to Circle fly.
Do to a number of reasons, unemployment being the latest, I've been selling my doubles but consider my Pedersoli a keeper.
Steve

Steve,

I am sorry to learn about your situation. Life can be tough on gun collections.

The 20 gauge is a good choice for a whole number of reasons. The gun should be fine in the uplands and its Cylinder barrel should be able to throw .610" round balls at least as well as any Northwest gun.

You make a good point about wads. FWIW the lubed wads that I was thinking about earlier were T/Cs. I understand that Circle Fly's lubed filler wads work well, too, but not for all of the same applications as the T/C wads.

One thing that I forgot to mention was nipples. By and large, "stock nipples" on Italian shotguns are junk. Install "quality" nipples like "Hot Shots" and it will be hard to go wrong.

Since you're leaning toward the 20 ga. this appears to be a good buy. Unfired, in the box and some nice looking wood. http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=124057280

Plan on making a strong loading, cleaning rod. The ramrod that comes with these is usless. My loading routing for many years has been to wipe with a damp patch after EACH shot, using flannel patches slightly damp with moose milk. This makes every shot load as easily as the first one. It is also a good safety practice, making it unlikely that a glowing spark will remain in the breech. For wads, I use 1 over-powder card, no "filler/cushion/cleaner" wad. The thick fiber wad contributes nothing to the pattern and just adds weight(recoil). An over shot on top of the shot and you're ready to go. V. M. Starr knew very well what he was talking about. He's my hero. My success in loading/shooting this way has satisfied me that he was right.

Jim, thanks for tip and loading info. Copied the info for future use; unfortunately my 20 is already on the way from Dixie (for $750 plus shipping). I don't expect the wood to be as good as that one you found, tho.

I don't like recoil much and would like to keep the loads as simple as possible. So I'll try your wad arrangement!

Dingelfutz,

It has been a pleasure reading your Posts in response to Mike's questions. I wish that it was possible to meet you and talk about this game in detail!

I will only add a couple of general type comments.

I hit a brick wall in my attempts to have a set of 20ga barrels jug choked. I was told by several in that business that the barrels would have to be seperated and re-regulated after being choked and rejoined.High $$$! My problem was solved by having a friend who is a barrel maker make a set of 16ga barrels choked before joining.I had the right barrel choked full, and the left barrel cyl. It is easier to reach up and back the right hammer than it is the left, and that's the reason I had the change from the traditional left barrel choked format.

I do have a jug choke in a New England Fowler with a 51 inch barrel. The piece patterns very well, and the jug choke does not affect patched round balls.

The fire hazard being greater with a ML'r, I'm not sure about. I've never had a bad experience with any of my activity loading in the traditional way with OP,cushion and OS cards. With patched round balls out of my flintlock rifles I frequently have patches smoulder, but only those that I dry lubed with water soluable oil and only on days with very low humidity. Overall I don't think the fire potential with a conventionally loaded ML shotgun would be very risky.

Mike, you'll have trouble finding 20ga cast round balls, and when you find them the price will be high. Best plan to bite the bullet and spend another $100. and get Ray Rapine to make a mould. On second thought, if you're in California you may be restricted from using lead! You may have to use ball bearings!

Probably restrict us to "noble metals" soon--real "Silvertips"!