doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion Classic & Custom Single Barreled Sporting Rifles @ doublegunshop.com .22WRF/.22 Rem Special question

Never sure where to ask this stuff, but since this is the "Rifle Column"... Somebody direct me if there's a better venue.

My question is: Does anyone know if the old .22WRF was originally loaded with black powder? My Cartridges of the World has it as introduced in 1890 with the Win 1890 pump. Isn't that a tad too early for a smokeless civilian ctg? Was "semi-smokeless" available then?

Just as a side note, I never have heard this ctg. referred to as .22WRF in conversation. Back when it was available and there were still guns in use, it was always ".22 Special," although I also never saw any of the round-nosed "Remington" type 45 gr. shells either. The only loading I ever saw until the ctg. was re-introduced as a copper-coated hollow point is the original Winchester 45 gr flatpoint. Old timers attributed magical powers to the ".22 Special," which did appear to kill small stuff deader faster than .22 LR. I use it as a quieter subload in my S&W 651 when I can find it, and still have a Stevens Ideal Mod 44 (plain-Jane) and a Win M68 single shot in this cal. Have seen and handled a late round-barrelled Lo-wall in .22 WRF as well, also a plain-Jane Plain Sporting Rifle.

Hi Mike,

I see you haven't gotten much response on one of my old favorites! I'll give you some comments about the ol' "WRF"
My first .22 many years ago was a Winchester Model 90 pump. It was chambered for .22 Short. I always wanted a Model 90 in .22 W.R.F. The oldtimers 60 years past told me WRF's weren't accurate... Today, I have one.... Today I know about WRF accuracy!

The .22 W.R.F. was introduced by Winchester in 1890 along with the Model 90 rifle. Ammunition had a 45 grain flat point inside lubricated bullet with 7 grs of black powder for a powder charge. Velocity was around 1100 fps. Semi-smokeless loads were around in the early 1900's and finally smokeless in the 20's. The smokeless rounds were the same 45gr flat point bullet at 1050fps. Around 1932 Winchester and Western brought out the Super Speed and Super-X rounds with the 45gr bullet at 1450fps. A 40gr hollow point was added at 1475fps.
45 years ago, I had a friend in Montana that had a Remington Model 12 pump in .22 Remington Special. George called it a .22 Special. Seems us Winchester boys called it the "WRF". What ever you called this ol' Model 12 of George's it wasn't NOT VERY ACCURATE! George had a conglomeration of shells; a little of everything... Some were WRF, some were marked Rem. Spl. some Hollow Points, some copper plated, some casings nickel plated... But one thing about them all is they would shoot! That Remington Model 12 "Special" was accurate with anything you feed it. George killed a black bear with it once!

Today's ammo has been slowed down some to around 1300 fps. My Model 90 shoots the Winchester ammo the best. It will outshoot my Model 90 .22 Short as well.
The flat point Winchester bullet mushrooms some even as a solid. It is a great small game round!
The Remington ammunition had a much smaller flat point even when still marked Rem. Spl...... I've never seen a round nose version around. Maybe the round nose was there when the Model 12 came around in 1912 and Remington started loading the shells??. I don't know...
Enjoy the fine old round! I bet that Stevens 44 is an accurate one in WRF!

d/n

Double, thanks for the info. Yeah the old flat point soft lead bullet was lethal for its size and velocity; back before we had game laws people regularly killed deer with it, especially back in the Great Depression when nobody could afford real "deer rifle" ammo. My wife's family had an old Remington 12CS that had done every duty that a ranch rifle is called upon to do--snakes, coyotes, cottontails, deer, steers, and "things that go bump in the night."

I've found that in general soft, flat pointed (really "flat-ended" would be more accurate) bullets at modest velocities kill game very well without all the fuss of high velocity, expanding jacketed bullets. I've killed a lot of large woodchucks with .32 S&W Long wadcutters and .38 Spl. wadcutters. Also had a student in the machinist course at my former employer (a community college) make me a mould for a .25-20 bullet that is as near to a wadcutter as I could design (it has a "maximum meplat" like the old LBT pistol bullets). Beer can-shaped bullets are very deadly at close range; just don't hold velocity very well. Accurate, too. They make a nasty "whop" sound when they hit.

My old Stevens 44 is very accurate with the new .22WRF ammo. It might be even a tad more accurate except that when I had it relined I could find no one who had a .22WRF reamer, so had it chambered to .22WRM--a little "freebore" .... Never fired a .22WRM in it yet, tho. Got plenty of guns actually MADE for that ctg..

Mike...Now you have awakened a desire I have not fulfilled! I have wanted a Remington Model 25 in .25-20 forever or a Winchester Model 92.... I do have a Marlin Model 94 in .25-20... RCBS makes a bullet mold that has a pretty blunt meplat; about like the LBT style at 85 grains. I loaded them to 1300fps and shot some blue grouse with them. It hammered them! Just a little tougher on them than a Long Rifle. I'd like about a 55gr bullet with a big flat like this one... 1100 would probably be enough for the blues. They're not too tough for sure but in thick cover I don't like them to run any like a .22 LR hit does once in a while. They don't move with the .25-20! I can't head shoot'em with open sights... The old eyes, especially in the dark woods won't let me anymore!

d/n

Double, I have a .25-20 Win 92 rifle (original), a Savage 23B (very late and in great condition but with a Savage sidemount added) and a Win Single Shot made from Winder parts and others (a true "parts gun" made of "parts guns"). I don't shoot the '92 much any more but do shoot and handload for the others. Only problem I find with the .25-20 is that it ricochets very badly and noisily. Not a problem if you hit what you're shooting at but a consideration in populated places (people OR stock). There I use .22 Hornet or .22 WRM. Good luck with finding either of those .25-20s in at a decent price, but you never know. Another neat .25-20 is the Husquvarna (sp?) bolt single shot. And you can make a very neat one by relining or rebarreling a Martini Cadet.

Sounds like you may need a scope--I can only shoot my Win SS because it has a 28" barrel and a tang sight. And I may be stuck with the scoped Savage only soon....it has a Weaver K3 which works for me.

Sure hate to hear about jobs like that. It's easy enough to short ream the chamber and use a boring bar in the lathe to cut the rim recess. That's what I do with my .357 Max barrel reamer when I need to do either 357 Magnum or 38 Spl.

David
Montezuma, IA

Yeah, David, I wasn't thrilled. The guy who did the reline is very skilled at relines. But perhaps a little specialized for what I needed. Lots of gunsmaithes in our times just aren't as flexible and creative as they was....something about lawyers...

Mike, a chronic lack of proper funding over the years is one source of my creativity! Trying to get a new shop up and running since the folks down the street decided I was surplus to their needs after twenty years...

David
Montezuma, IA

David, please email me your contact info in case I or one of my unindicted co-consporitors feels a project coming on. email g.armstrong@hvcc.edu Thanks, Mike Armstrong

Information is on the way.

David
Montezuma, IA