March
S M T W T F S
1 2
3 4 5 6 7 8 9
10 11 12 13 14 15 16
17 18 19 20 21 22 23
24 25 26 27 28 29 30
31
Who's Online Now
5 members (Bob Jurewicz, lagopus, Jtplumb, SKB, craigd), 871 guests, and 6 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,374
Posts544,017
Members14,391
Most Online1,258
Mar 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 948
Likes: 2
Tinker Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 948
Likes: 2
Getting close to a good regulation load for the (new to me) Westley Richards 16bore central fire rifle (ca 1864), thoughts of setting myself up with a fixed powder measure and a dedicated set of hand tools had me at the loading bench with a 100yr old (or so) adjustable shot/powder measure.

Since I'm in the neighborhood of 5 Drams Goex FFg (been weighing my charges by the each on my Redding scale) by weight, I figured I'd throw a regulated charge from the little ~yr1900 vintage shot/powder measure set to the 5 Dram mark and weigh it.

I'm looking for relative volume/weight numbers here.

It came to 121.5 Grains with Goex FFg.
Swiss 1-1/2F at the same volume = 129.5 Grains.

For the sake of square numbers, my 5 Dram load (via scale) has been 140 Grains.


Anyone here have a vintage Brit powder measure from a vintage Brit rifle?
I'd like to get a sense of scale here.
If I'm burning 140 Grains (or however much powder for that matter) of Goex FFg to get my rifle to shoot, I want to be able back it out to volume in *relative period scale* by way of volume.
If you do have a vintage Brit powder measure, please throw some measured charges of Goex FFg (and swiss f&a-half if you have it), weigh it in grains, and post back to this thread.

A Dram is supposed to be 1/16 Ounce
A Dram is supposed to be 27.34375 grains
Five drams should weigh 136.72 Grains
My 140 Grain loads have been printing pretty well and at this point I'm focusing in that neighborhood, fiddling with ball diameter and wad column height and grease formula.
I might end up settling with a bit more powder by the time the sun sets on load development.

Black Powder is typically measured by volume, but for my load development I've been going by weight to get consistent energy shot to shot.

For the sake of what conversation may come of this, I'm aware of the "Goex does not equal Curtis&Harvey energy" phenomenon. What I have found though, over the course of load development on four such small bore 'Bore Rifles' is that Goex FFg and Swiss 1-1/2F (by weight) tend to get the rifles to print at POI that are fairly similar.

With bore-rifle loads, there's typically a bit of latitude in the wad column, giving room to adjust for powder volume and bullet seating depth.

I think things might be a bit different with the more 'high strung' bottleneck 'express' cartridges, where the Swiss powder appears to be the key to success for many guys in their pursuit of black powder double rifle load development.


Although a rose is a rose and apples aren't oranges, my 140 Grains of Goex FFg is covering more volume than 5 drams on my vintage adjustable powder/shot measure.
I want more units of comparison from the peanut gallery here.
Part of my interest here is to (for the sake of satisfying curiosity) determine what *in period terms* they'd have called the charge for this rifle - for instance, do we call this a Five Dram rifle or do we call this rifle a Five and a Half Dram rifle..?


Any way it goes, I'll note one thing for the guys here - this rifle rips, and it's accurate!





Cheers
Tinker

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 622
PM Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 622
How much does your rifle weigh, what is the weight of the projectile and when was the gun made? I see what your trying to do but without some period Curtis and Harvey's how can we compare Goex to Swiss to the 1880's vintage which we know to have been a stronger brew. Sometimes the use of 30gr per dram is what is needed to get proper velocity, at least with the 12's and larger. I use Swiss ffg in my big 10's and my 8's at 28 or 29gr per dram.

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 948
Likes: 2
Tinker Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 948
Likes: 2
PM-

The rifle weighs ten pounds, the barrels (30") weigh six pounds.
It was built in 1864 by request of The Bishop for the New Bond Street shop (thanks WR for the ink-signed documents on the rifle).

At some time after the rifle was built, it was 'Converted by Fletcher of Gloucester' - likely at that time the 3-bite action and rib extension were added, also likely at that time the chambers were brought open to 3" and the barrels re-regulated and sighted for the new load.

Fletcher of Gloucester was seen by many as a 'Builder to the Gunbuilders', he had a few patents, and some very well recognized admirers and patrons - including Samuel Baker who spoke very highly of him in a few places over the years, noting that his favorite rifle of them all (that which went to bed with him every night) was built by Fletcher of Gloucester.
Neat stuff there.

I do not have shop-notes signifying the charge prescription.
I have found by way of measurement and exercise that the rifle likes groove-diameter ball (.685" or better) and the thin brass case with a charge in the neighborhood of 140+ Grains of Goex FFg or Swiss 2f or 1-1/2F
My last time out at the ranch with it I was buring Swiss 2F and 500gr ~.693 ball (~14 bore ball from Track)
The powders all tend to print to just about the same point of impact, the Goex powder leaves a much nicer *moist and manageable* fouling where the Swiss fouling is flaky and hard.
I'll focus on getting the final-final with Goex powder. There's enough room for ample greased felt wadding and Goex powder to make it run right.


Still, I'm looking to somehow (again just for the sake of a curious streak) work the load back to a period charge-prescription.


I hope that clarifies my interest in the exercise here.


This is a photo of the rifle in it's current condition.





From your conversion formula, and my bench/target experience with this rifle and Swiss 2F powder it would appear to be a "Five Dram" rifle.

Cheers
Tinker

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Don't know what combination powder/shot measure you have, but on all of mine it is simply impossible for them to have total accuracy. Powder is marked in ¼ dram & shot in 1/8oz increments. All of them use the same setting for 2½ drams & 1oz. Simple mathamatics shows this to be 10 increments for the powder (2½ ÷ ¼) or 2.5 ÷ .25. The shot however being in 1/8oz increments has only 8 of them (1 ÷ 1/8). Obviously then the settings on these simple measures are a compromise, though adequate for most shotgun work. An older article from the American Rifleman which I have kept for many years stated industry standard for volume of Black Powder was based on .115 CuIn per Dram, thus a 5/8" dia measure 1 1/8" long has a capacity of .345 CuIn or Three Drams. The old Lyman #5 & #55 measures with drams & Grains markings for BP were I believe based upon this standard & were rather accurate for the powders of the day. I do not have any current stock of Goex, but last I had was still fairly close to those wt/volume combos.


Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 948
Likes: 2
Tinker Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 948
Likes: 2
Miller-


Thanks for piping up in this thread.
I definitely do realize the shortcomings of the adjustable measures, and that's why I'm asking if there's someone here who has an orig Brit powder measure from an original Brit rifle.


Here's an image of one style of period fixed volume Brit powder measure, as would be included with a regulated rifle.





I have seen these marked in Grains, I have seen them marked in Drams, I have seen them with and without 'dipper' handles.




Cheers
Tinker


Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 6,812
Using one of those nickel plate B.G.I. Co. (1886 patent) adjustables, Goex ffg gave 137.8 grains on an electronic scale. Tried an 1890 patent BGI and discovered it's graduated only to 4.75 drams.

jack

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 948
Likes: 2
Tinker Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 948
Likes: 2
Jack-

Sounds like your measure and mine are in a very similar range of trim.
Still interested to see what a Brit (guncase item) fixed measure will do.



Cheers
Tinker

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 12,743
Tinker;
Do you have equipment to get an accurate measurement of the ID & depth of the cavity in that 130 grain measure. Be interesting to see how the volume compares with that of the "US" standard. By that standard a 130 grain measure would have a volume of about .547 CuIn.

PS; Incidently I checked a modern made adjustable brass powder measure made by a ML'ing supplier which goes up to 120 grains & it fit to a tee, so apparently this standard is still being adhered to by some makers at least.

PPS; For a number of years the Hercules/Alliant handloader guides included a chart showing how long a column 1oz of shot would make in the various size bores of common gauges. Neither size or hardness of shot was specified, but by computation volume worked out to an average of .288 CuIn per oz. This would mean that if otherwise accurately made the 2½-1 setting on an ordinary adjustable combination dipper would be the only setting which was technically correct. (.115 CuIn x 2½ = .2875 CuIn volume for 2½ drams powder).

Last edited by 2-piper; 05/30/09 08:45 AM.

Miller/TN
I Didn't Say Everything I Said, Yogi Berra
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 948
Likes: 2
Tinker Offline OP
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 948
Likes: 2
Miller-


If I had access to that measure I could gauge it myself (down to .0001" in whatever direction), but it's only a photograph and this is the closest I've been to it.
I don't know where it is - just picked it off the web some time in the past.

Very much interested in seeing what a 'regulated' fixed powder measure from a vintage Brit (cased tool kit for instance) rifle will do (by way of grains weight) with Goex FFg.

The adjustable measure I'd used (one of many such mid-century USA made adjustable measures in my stash) is a mid-19th century American 1ounce/2-1/2Drm - 2ounce/5Drm adjustable model from Torrington.


As things tend to be a bit different from shore to shore, and things out here don't always agree with things in the UK, I'm interested to see how today's Goex FFg powder regulates by weight through a vintage Brit fixed measure.


For instance, if that 130 Grain fixed measure was available to me, I'd throw a regulated charge of Goex FFg through it and give it a go on my Grains scale in a hot minute.




Cheers
Tinker

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 96
Sidelock
***
Online Content
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,733
Likes: 96
Tinker, I replied with my findings on the thread about loading tools. I got 5 drams measured on one of mine to come to 131.7 grains. Anyway, it's all in the other thread. Lagopus.....

Page 1 of 2 1 2

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.082s Queries: 35 (0.059s) Memory: 0.8590 MB (Peak: 1.8988 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-03-29 11:45:00 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS