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#150474 06/06/09 02:45 PM
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I might have missed it; does anyone know of a chemical breakdown for 1900's era barrel steels? Im looking specifically for plain Krupp Laufstahl circa 1915. Needed are the precentages of carbon and other addatives.

Many thanks,

C.

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If you find out, please post it. I would like to see it as well.

Pete

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I asked Geno and he had a good answer several years ago. Perhaps he could dig it out again. I am sorry I did not save it.

bill

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So you would like the components for a plain-jane Krupp tube? I'll have to look but Krupp was about as serious about his steel as Heinrich Ehrhardt of Reinische Metallwaren(?) in that he demanded 1st quality puddlers early on when using producing Crucible steel and held a school for the puddlers either in German or England, possibly by the English. Either Fremy or Captain Lahitolle penned a text with the name "Gun Metal" in Paris in 1874 and I think this was my source. But Krupp Crucible tubes were of 3 parts iron and 1 part steel with Manganese, which was a component in the ore from the Siegen Mines.

With that said, how about circa 1905 Krupp Chrome Nickel Steel Brand "D"???

0.5% Carbon
3.26% Chromium
0.16% Manganese
1.26% Nickel
0.04% Phosphorus
0.11% Silicon
0.03% Sulphur

Tensile strength was near 106.5k lbs
Elastic limit near 92.5k lbs/in^2

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Last edited by ellenbr; 06/06/09 07:37 PM.
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I should have looked earlier....

Metallurgy: The Art of Extracting Metals from Their Ores, and Adapting Them to Various Purposes of Manufacture
By John Percy
Published by J. Murray, 1864

http://books.google.com/books?dq=krupp+carbon&pg=PA837&id=RYpBAAAAIAAJ#PPA837,M1
Quote:
Uniformity in grain, to which I have above alluded, is not an invariable characteristic of Krupp's steel ; for not long ago I received from Mr. Lloyd, chief engineer of the Navy, part of a fractured marine shaft made of this steel, which was very much more largely crystalline towards the centre than elsewhere.

The following is an analysis by Mr. Abel, of the lioyal Arsenal, of a portion of a cast-steel gun made by Krupp :

Carbon, combined 1.18%
Silicon 0.33%
Sulphur none.
Phosphorus 0.02%
Manganese trace.
Cobalt and nickel 0.12%
Copper 0.30%
Iron, by difference 98.05%


Another analysis of Krupp steel used for railroad rails.
Engineering chemistry: a practical treatise for the use of analytical chemists, engineers, ironmasters, iron founders, students, and others
By H. Joshua Phillips
Published by C. Lockwood & son, 1891

http://books.google.com/books?id=UgBIAAA...ganese#PPA65,M1

Side by side analysis of Krupp with other steels.
A naval encyclopædia: comprising a dictionary of nautical words and phrases; biographical notices, and records of naval officers; special articles of naval art and science
Published by L. R. Hamersly & co., 1880

http://books.google.com/books?id=IPvxNqDjeXYC&pg=PA387&dq=krupp+carbon+silicon+Manganese

Another side by side comparison
Proceedings - Institution of Mechanical Engineers
By Institution of Mechanical Engineers (Great Britain)., Institution of Mechanical Engineers (Great Britain)
Published by Published for the Institution by Mechanical Engineering Publications Ltd., 1902
Item notes: pt. 2

http://books.google.com/books?id=HXbNAAA...anese#PPA837,M1

Alfred Krupp: a Sketch of His Life and Work: After the German of Victor Niemeyer
By Kate Woodbridge Michaelis, Otho E. Michaelis, E. Monthaye
Published by T. Prosser, 1888

Krupp puddled steel plant
http://books.google.com/books?id=UKlCAAAAIAAJ&pg=PA60&dq=krupp+puddling#PPA59,M1

The composition seems to change over time and possibly by intended use.

Pete

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Since at least the 1880s, big guns, naval and the like, were Crucible Nickel steel and I assume, but could be wrong, that small arms were also. Fremy also confirmed the 1.18% carbon circa 1864 or 1874. Krupp was very, very secretive with the composition of his steel early on. By the early 1900s, carbon was down to approximately the 1/2 percent range.

By the way, I should have better identified Fremy, Edmond Fremy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edmond_Fr%C3%A9my .

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Last edited by ellenbr; 06/06/09 10:18 PM.
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Good information, Gents. Many thanks.

Raimey, if you havent done so yet, you might enjoy reading the Krupp family history "Arms of Krupp" by Mansfield. It tells how the old man went spying about Sheffield, England in the 1870's trying to steal their steel formulations. It also tells much about his tenacity and genius for vertical integration.

I know that Sauer and Krupp were partners in the development of Krupp's small-arms Laufstahl. The two firms had a special relationship for as long as Sauer existed. I also read in my research that Krupp gets credit for inventing stainless steel in 1912. I saw a "Nirosta"-barreled Sauer sidelock drilling at Tulsa many years ago. It was in 30 Army rifle caliber and weighed a ton.

Somewhere in my life I read a comparsion chart of bursting strenths of the various shotgun barrel steels. I do recall Whitten Excelsior came out tied at the top with a couple of others. It may have been in DGJ or something Oscar posted here. If anyone know if it, please post.

Best,

C.

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..by William Manchester...and I was lot happier with my German Krupp barreled guns before I read the book. Some truly evil stuff there.

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Back in 2005 there was a long discussion about the strength of various steels. Geno provided these figures from a 1905 work by Prof Buturlin.

Steel Type Max (lbs/sq in)
Damascus -------------- 31,291 to 52,626
Typical 1905 Steel --- 64,000
Winchester Steel ----- 39,400
Winchester Nickel --- 88,600
Krupp Special --------- 85,340
Krupp 5 M ------------- 92,450
Bohler Antinit ------ 116,630

Pete

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C. Kofoed:

I have it on my list along with a 2008 publication like "Blood & Steel" on the topic of artificial teeth, but for now neither have floated to the top.

The gun tube steel composition, as mentioned by PeteM, seems to have been ever changing and I'm sure a tube of Krupp Laufstahl in the 1890s differed from a similar tube circa WWI. Nirosta(I'm bad to let the "t" float and spell it Nitrosa) for example had several variations and from 1909 to 1912 Krupp was busy in the R&D of stainless steels, Class III today, and Nirosta was the result. By the end of WWII there were several Nirosta types such as:
Nirosta 18-8
Nirosta 19-9-4
Nirosta V-2A
Nirosta V-2A Extra .

Nirosta steel was by the Nirosta Corporation/Krupp Nirosta, under the Krupp umbrella was licensed throughout the world and had about 8% nickel and 18% chromium. It was the component chromium which gave the steel its ability to resist corrosion.

I haven't seen a tube stamped so, but "Enduro" was a low chrome-nickel rustless steel(chrom. 13.5%, Nickel 2% max) Krupp Nirosta Company/The Nirosta Corporation. With the last few years and definitely in the past 20, Thyssen(August)-Krupp(Friedrich) developed a new Nirosta as number 4003 and there may be a more recent release.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse


Last edited by ellenbr; 06/07/09 08:49 AM.
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