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Pre-1887 London proof marks for a black powder .500 double rifle (both barrels marked "39" bore). You say the right barrel is a smooth-bore now? Roughly what gauge is it?


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Welcome CLH:
Harry Eales gave you the site for the records and the folks at Glasgow are very helpful. They will send you basic info for free if you send them an e-mail. I obtained a copy of the journal page for my A&N. I subsequently asked them for a copy of any catalog pages they might have from when the gun was sold. A couple of weeks later I received copies of the catalog pages that showed my gun.

Very decent folks.

Mike

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I would say it is a 16 gauge. To small for a 12 gauge and a little to big for a 20 gauge. Somebody had suggested it might be a 577 round any thoughts.

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There is a 3 digit number 9xx behind the trigger guard and where the pistol grip area is. It is also the same number stamped on the lower portion under the barrel when it is broke open. Is this the serial number possibly?

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Originally Posted By: CLH
Somebody had suggested it might be a 577 round any thoughts.


In terms of original proof, no, it couldn't be. As I said in my previous post, both barrels show London marks in use until 1887, and are for a .500 rifle. From your photograph of the flats, starting from the breech end (reading right to left), the marks are:

London provisional proof mark (lion rampant over the letters GP interlaced in a cypher)

London view mark (Crown over V)

Bore diameter (39)

London definitive proof mark (Crown over the letters GP interlaced in a cypher)

Nitro proof was still in the future when these marks were in use.

Prior to 1887, the British determined and marked bore diameter of rifles in exactly the same way as they did smoothbores - in gauge. In other words, a 39 gauge ball (.492") would drop through the bores of your gun, but a 38 gauge (.497") would not, so it's marked "39" gauge. Due to the method used to determine gauge, it's important to understand that this mark represents, with respect to rifles, LAND diameter, not groove, which would be 10 thou or more greater. The various British .500 rifle cartridges from the period used bullets of .500 to .510". Prior to 1887, the rifles chambered for them were marked "39", a few "38". Understand that this mark addresses only bore diameter, and tells you nothing of the rest of the cartridge (British proof marks of the time didn't). There were a number of .500s of different lengths, including several based on bottlenecked .577 cases. Only a chamber cast can tell you which case this one used.

Pre-1887, the various .577 bore rifles were marked "25".

Note that the marks on both barrels are the same. If this piece were built as a cape gun in, say, .500 BPE/16 gauge, the rifled barrel would be marked "39", and the smooth barrel would be marked "16". Unless there was some strange 39 bore shotshell at the time that I've somehow missed, the proof marks say that this piece was built as a .500 double rifle that has since had it's right barrel converted to a shotgun without re-proof. Unfortunately, such conversion would hammer the value of the piece pretty hard.


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Originally Posted By: CLH
There is a 3 digit number 9xx behind the trigger guard and where the pistol grip area is. It is also the same number stamped on the lower portion under the barrel when it is broke open. Is this the serial number possibly?


Yes, that would be Army & Navy's number. Understand that A & N didn't make it, as they were only a retailer. Most of their guns will also bear the trade maker's serial number as well, which will usually be found on the underside of the barrels (on the key rib, fore-end hanger, lower rib, etc.).


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Thanks for all the information. There is a number 1646 on the underside middle of the barrels. That would not be good if it had been bored out to a shotgun round. Is there anyway I could tell if it came from the factory or not. Possibly a misstamp or something? Either way it was well done if afterwords. I will try and post a picture of the chamber are. Thanks again.

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Clint,

Sounds like the gun I saw at Camp Eggers here in Kabul on Friday and posted on the Double Rifle, Paradox Guns Forum here. Here's the description with the S/N 1646 on the bottom rib, the clincher for making it the same gun:

"What should appear at the Kabul Cape Eggers gun dealer but a cape gun, marked Army & Navy CSL, back action sidelock, hammers that can be bolted, with a Jones underlever. The gun uses extractors. The forend comes off with one of those old fastenings that slides across. Steel barrels with a dolls head; back sight has one folding leaf marked 50; front sight a bit beaten down. Four Proof marks on the flats: from the breech forward they are: London Provisional proof for barrels; London View, the numbers 39 (NOTE: 400Nitro kindly identified this as the gauge and equal to .500 cal.), and London definitive black powder proof. On the bottom rib some inches from the flats are the numbers 1646. The serial number of the gun, found on the trigger bow is 937, confirmed on the action flats. Steel butt plate. LOP is my estimate about 14 to 14-1/4.

The gauge/caliber are not marked [See above correction.]. The right barrel appears to be 16 gauge, but might be 20. Barrels are clean inside with some dings on the outside, but no dents. The left rifled barrel with wide lands and grooves fits a martini-henry cartridge according to the dealer (577/450). Asking price is $1,800."

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This is a picture of the chamber area. I would say that you are probably correct with the chamber being bored out. I have looked it over closely and it appears to be a high quality bore job. With that in mind I wonder if it was done at the factory. Based on the era and thereafter for some time there woulnd't have been many per say gunsmiths that could perform this task thise well is there? I would like your professional opoinion on the value had it not been bored and what you think the value would be in the current state. I'm just looking for a couple ball park figures nothing in stone.

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Originally Posted By: CLH
[img]http://[URL]http://myfreefilehosting.com/f/9ef6af4186_0.28MB[/URL][/img]
This is a picture of the chamber area. I would say that you are probably correct with the chamber being bored out. I have looked it over closely and it appears to be a high quality bore job. With that in mind I wonder if it was done at the factory.


Yes, the right is definitely a re-bore. No, it couldn't have been done at the factory, nor is it at all likely that it was done in England, as such work without re-proof has been illegal there since long before this rifle was made.

From the locations on the gun, 973 is Army & Navy's serial number, and 1646 is the trade maker's serial number. From the number, the gun's features, and it's proof marks, I think this is an 1870's gun. It might be possible to confirm all of the above from the A & N records archived in Glasgow, IF records that early survive (the company was founded in 1871), and if their format is the same as it is in the later ledgers. It's worth a try.

Given the conversion, I think the asking price is rather strong. Were the rifle original and in excellent condition, it would be worth several times that.

Hope this helps.


"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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