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Joined: Nov 2004
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I've learned the hard way that they do in this case.


"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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CC does the checkering look correct on this 1925 W&C Scott sidelock ?

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Originally Posted By: 400 Nitro Express
I've learned the hard way that they do in this case.


I think it is accepted that you can't take a quality double gun to the local gunsmith. Since the USA probably has 1000 'smiths for every one in UK (or expatriate Brits in the USA) your odds of having a USA 'smith make a mistake are greater. If, IF, you don't do your homework.

400, your posts are generally informative but I think you do the high quality gunmaker/'smiths in the USA a disservice with your blanket statement.

On the other hand, if you don't send them your work, mine will get done sooner.


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I sent the link to this thread to one of the American gunsmith's you so easily dismiss.

I'm paraphrasing but here are his thoughts.
Quote:

"Americans made checkering an art form. Not the British, nor Italians, nor Austrians, nobody but the lowly Americans.

Now the world aspires.

About the only reason that W&S did flat top checkering was that it cost them less to meet their price point."


FWIW: He is known well for his stock design and I trust his opinion without question. He has forgotten more about the making of classic rifles and shotguns than most will ever know.



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I've always looked at checkering as more utilitarian and Engraving as more of an art form.

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Originally Posted By: 400 Nitro Express
Originally Posted By: Rocketman
How does proper Brit checkering differ from American?


More difficult (and expensive) to do.




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Originally Posted By: Utah Shotgunner
I sent the link to this thread to one of the American gunsmith's you so easily dismiss.

I'm paraphrasing but here are his thoughts.
Quote:

"Americans made checkering an art form. Not the British, nor Italians, nor Austrians, nobody but the lowly Americans.

Now the world aspires.

About the only reason that W&S did flat top checkering was that it cost them less to meet their price point."


FWIW: He is known well for his stock design and I trust his opinion without question. He has forgotten more about the making of classic rifles and shotguns than most will ever know.


Perfect! Exactly! That rhetoric is universal with them. That perfectly ignorant and militant mindset is why it's so hard to get acceptable work out of them on a BRITISH gun. Moreover, work from those famous American names is often more expensive than shipping the gun back to England and having it done properly.

Look, I'm not saying that we don't have some talented American smiths, we do. I'm saying that there are significant differences between American & British designs and methods. British stockmakers like David T. (Purdey) and Paul Hodgins (Holland) did long apprenticeships to learn to make the British design using their traditional methods. I've seen many "restorations" and restocks of British guns that came through ACGG members. Execution is usually superb...and wrong. The work is expensive, out of place, and requires more money to salvage. Some Americans have the talent (and lack the militancy) to study what they remove from a British gun and simply duplicate it - and do a good job. Very, very few. Most are like your fellow - well trained, maybe some talent to go with it; plenty of experience with American guns, but no training on British guns, possessing open contempt for and ignorance of them as exposed by his statements; and likely unable to rein in his prejudice long enough to do a correct job on a gun that isn't American. Certainly not somebody that gets to touch one of mine.

It's real simple. If you're wanting to commission a concours, frame-off restoration of a '59 Silver Cloud, you wouldn't choose an expert on vintage Cadillacs, or vice-versa. Again, British and American gunmaking designs and methods are quite different. American smiths don't have the training for the British guns (that's not an insult, it's just an observation of fact and common sense) and vice-versa. Sure, American smiths CAN learn it, our people have as much talent as anybody, but they won't with the attitude that your guy, and many more American smiths that I've encountered, obviously have.

Yes, we have some great American smiths - for American guns. In long guns, I'm partial to British, and I prefer them to be un - "Americaned".

As for this statement....

Quote:
I'm paraphrasing but here are his thoughts.

"Americans made checkering an art form. Not the British, nor Italians, nor Austrians, nobody but the lowly Americans.

Now the world aspires.


The howler of the year. That guy has steer horns on the hood of his beat up Cadillac and thinks Rosie O'Donnell is the sexiest woman alive. Many things can be excused, but poor taste is just sad. He probably thinks that the subject of this string was perfectly done.





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Originally Posted By: mike campbell
Originally Posted By: 400 Nitro Express
Originally Posted By: Rocketman
How does proper Brit checkering differ from American?


More difficult (and expensive) to do.






Priced any lately?


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Originally Posted By: HomelessjOe
I've always looked at checkering as more utilitarian and Engraving as more of an art form.


Agreed. Done right, though, checkering can add a quiet elegance, in addition to excellent function.

By the way, yours look original and in good shape. Might could use a gentle cleaning. It's identical to my 1927 gun.


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400,

Funny, he knew the market so well, he even accurately predicted your response.

"The internet gun BBS's seem a sterling example of users who only like to hear the intelligence, of themselves."

You mentioned having to remove the checkering and starting over to get a proper English style of checkering, yet in this very thread David T. pointed out the difference between the two was a bastard file some 400 grit and finish.

I consider Paul Hodgins a friend and have had long conversations with him.

Paul has mentioned the gentleman you so cavalierly ran under the bus to me. He disagrees with your assessment.

It is simple really, you are so sure of your own opinions that you won't allow any other thoughts on the matter intrude into your sacrosanct anglophile world.

I'm sorry you choose to use this forum to lecture us on our lack of knowledge instead of for the exchange of information and learning that many of us prefer.


Mike
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