doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Simmons rib on model 12

I was at a local gunshop this morning and was looking at a model 12 2-3/4" that had a Simmons rib. The gun looked to be in excellent condition except some nitwit had inlayed a white plastic diamond in the stock at some point. The price $379 does not seem out of line for model 12's in this area; however, my question is does the Simmons rib add or detract from the value of the gun?

Ernie Simmons of Olathe, Kansas, a gunsmithing "whiz-kid" and a fairly good skeet shooter to boot-they were involved in the later cost-saving Winchester ventilated ribs for various Winchester shotguns- Model 12's, Model 50's, possibly Model 21's-

The original "Old milled rib" was developed by Winchester in the 1920's- but like so many of the older quality features, post WW11 competition by Remington and Ithaca made Olin-Winchester more "cost concerned"-- Many Model 12's were equipped with Simmons ribs afterwards, some were sent to New Haven by Simmons, and some Model 12's (and others) were fitted with ribs at the Simmons facility in Olathe.

Ernie Simmons was, in a "ham-fisted segue of sorts" semi-involved in a design change in the Model 21 receiver- although my 1938 Winchester Salesmans Catalogue shows a custom grade M21 without the side arrow reinforcement "bosses"- Ernie took a 20 gauge M21- sleeved two .410 barrels into the barrel breech stubs-believe the barrels came from the M37 single shot model-and made a crude but effective .410 skeet gun in M21 configuration. When John Olin heard of this, he had Dave Carlson, Custom Shop Works Manager then, tool up for a .410 M21- and they milled off the side reinforcements and decided the M21 receiver was already strong enough- etc- etc.

You might want to refer to Dave Riffle's excellent book on the M12- he has one chapter in great detail on all the rib variations over the 1912-1964 production run of the "Perfect Repeater"!

As to price- gun show "touts" will try to tell you the M12 market is "soft"- B.S. (IMO) any original unaltered M12 will always bring a solid price to the seller, if he is wise and wary.
The "idiot" who inlaid the whatever lowered the resale value, again, IMO, almost as if he had installed a Cutts Comp. or inlet a small compass into the buttstock- recoil pads, if done properly, are not that big a deterent-

Area gun shop in MI I frequent has two 12 gauge "bread and butter" Model 12's at $400.00- one is a 1922 mfg. nickel steel 30" full, the other is a 1938 mfg. WPS and also 30" full- both are plain std. barrels (best for field shooting IMO) with original stocks, buttplates, 18 ring forearms. orignal front sights- they also have a 1947 M12 3"- 30" Full in same condition at $525.00--

If the price seems right and the gun fits and you like the ventilated rib, well you pays your money- etc--but unless you are in a hurry, shop around. One thing I will guarantee- you will never ever wear out a Model 12-i have tried with the five in my working collection- all were made from 1932 to 1950, and were well used but well cared for before they came into my ownership-I like douboles, but when the money is one the line. make mine a Model 12- every time--

Alex, we don't have enough info to give you an informed opinion. Generally, a Simmons rib gun will bring a higher price than a plain barrel gun, and a lower price than a solid rib or Winchester vent rib gun, all other factors being equal. Look for an offset proof mark on the barrel to indicate whether the rib came on the gun or was fitted aftermarket. An offset proof mark will boost the value compared to an aftermarket rib. As to price, it will also depend on gauge, barrel length, choke, barrel steel, wood type, pad vs. plate, etc. If it's a 12 gauge, replacement factory butt stocks can be hard to come by. For small bores, there are still new factory wood sets available.

This is a shotgun I should never have sold. I used to club trap targets with it. I put one of those BIG soft foam risers on the comb and shot it that way for years.

Why is it in this thread? It is a pump (870) and it has one heck of a Simmons rib on it.

Holy Cow!!!!

Thanks= Re-Up- forgot the offset marks on a factory ribbed gun- two of my 5 pre-1950 M12's have the factory solid rib, and the 1948 Pigeon Trap has the "Old Milled Rib" with the sandblast bulled top and the "Duck-Billed" rib extension. Another sign of an after factory rib were the numer of 30" Full field guns later ribbed either with Simmons or MoneyMaker ventilated ribs, but the top milled groove in the receiver was a dead-give-away as to that, and when the Model 12 ruled the ATA roost, I am sure many "newbies" bought those modified and restocked field guns and thought - "Wow- now I have a Model 12 Trap gun- look out Vandalia, here I come"--I have several post 1935 12 gauge Model 12 buttstocks and also 18 ring forearms in my "parts boxes, also older logo and non-logo repro 12 gauge black bakelite buttplates-the 16 and 20 and 28- all on the same size receiver, take the same stock configuration.

Looks to me a bit like the raised rib on a Lutjic one barrel trap gun- and the 870- well, Rudy Etchen shot a 12 gauge 870 Trap Grade he got new in 1950-I'd like to have a C-note for every clay bird, box pigeon and game bird he shattered with that old Remmie- I could move in next to Bill Gates- or maybe his gardener!!

It's what was refered to as a "Olympic Rib". Thought behind it was that a taller rib on the bbl and a higher comb on the stock would help prevent "head lifting".
I still have a couple Md.12's that I had built up like that 870. Great for trap shooting.

Every once in a while a Model 12 comes through our club with a high Moneymaker rib like that. Although, you didn't really need them to shoot trap with....... But getting back to the original question, a Simmons rib does detract from the value of a Model 12 and most people will turn away from them. Although the quality of the rib will be the same as the original Winchester, the only way a Simmons rib looks OK on a Model 12 is if they DON'T put their silly name down the side of the rib. That turns people off and lowers the value. If you have them put a rib on your gun, you will get the best, and if you ask them to leave their name off of the gun, they won't put it on. Why they ever do that, I will never know. It reminds me of a car dealer who puts a sticker of his dealership on the truck of your car that won't come off. Please, guy!! Put a license plate holder around the plate and I will be glad to advertise for you that way. But don't put something on there permenant. Please!?

There are some Simmons marked rib on Model 12s that were considered to be factory. So some look OK. The big problem is counterfeiting.

Side Story: I have a 1968/72 Deluxe L.C. Smith, one of 188 made. They were all fitted with a steel Simmons marked rib, and so stated in the Marlin catalogs at the time. So the marked ribs were factory for this model and look OK.