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Mar 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 15,456 Likes: 86 |
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,377 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,377 Likes: 105 |
It is very unlikely your gun was made in 1941. Germany was occupying Belgium. Sporting firearms were not being produced in any numbers, as the Germans had the Belgians making parts for their military needs.
Pete, my thoughts were in line with yours, for a very long time. Belgium, occupied from spring 1940 on . . . surely they couldn't have been producing many sporting arms? But at least going by the date codes, I've looked at quite a few (including several Francottes) from that "occupation" period. I wonder if maybe the Germans focused mainly on FN for their requirements, and allowed at least some production of sporting arms to continue by other makers.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
Larry, My best guess is that guns were waiting to be proofed when the invasion occurred. During the occupation some of the "back log" was proofed, but very few. I know of at least one case where a set of damascus tubes were hiden in a wall and did not come to light until some recent remodeling. I do know the Germans took control of Pieper. It certainly happened to them during both wars. This is from an email exchange with Raimey on the topic Subject: Anciens Etablissements Pieper
Peter:
In your reading and research have you run across any references that Heinrich Krieghoff purchased Pieper in the 1930s upon the German invasion of Belgium(I don’t know what year that was)? Ludwig, Heinrich’s father, was quick to recognize and accept mechanization and I’m sure drilling it into Heinrich’s head before his walk about to FN, where he learned the mechanized manufacture of barrels and parts on a large scale. By the 1940s Krieghoff was huge with 4 factories around Suhl and a drop forge in addition to facilities in Lodz, Poland, Kufstein, Austrian Tyrol region, Franzenfester, Muhlbach and Sterzing. Post WWI, many, many German gunsmith firms failed and Krieghoff was there to absorb the machinery and components under his umbrella.
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Raimey,
- In 1917 there was a letter of confirmation that Pieper would produce Luger parts for the German's.
- Kriehoff annexed Pieper from 1941 to 1944. It would be hard to call it a purchase.
- What is known about it is on pages 201-202 of Bayard Les hommes, les armes et machines du Chevalier Pieper & Cie 1859-1957 by Michel Druart.
- I am pretty sure that Fabrique National suffered a similar fate under German occupation. I know the Germans were impressed with FN during WWI because of the level of mechanization of the factory.
- You must remember that during both wars, Belgium fell very quickly and early on. It is hard to say no with the buyer's army sitting in your office. Pete
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,736 Likes: 96
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 2,736 Likes: 96 |
Yes, it's a Bay Dog. I have two. They are a rare breed here in Britain but I have had four so far and bred one litter. I work them for myself and also pick up with them at some big driven shoots. We have been on the grouse moors today and got well wet into the bargin.
Goosander not ringed; must be a trick of the light. I don't shoot them for food, don't worry on that score. They are a protected species here but I get a special license to shoot a certain number each year for Fishery protection purposes.
No, I could not find much on F. Doumulin. This particular gun has the name of a British Army Officer engraved on the trigger guard. He served with the Royal Engineers in the last war so I wondered if it had been 'liberated' at some time. It is a nice gun and in good condition. Lagopus.....
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,377 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,377 Likes: 105 |
Pete--You could be right, about the "waiting to be proofed" thing. I knew about FN previously. Pieper (Bayard) made handguns also, which would have made them perhaps of more interest to the Germans than companies like Dumoulin and Francotte. I owned a Francotte with a 1943 date code.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Known, but not highly valued Continental name equals Brand Value level four (BV4). Looks to be a notch above a colonial/farmer BLNE grade gun, so Original Quality grade is OQ8. Current Condition looks to be between slightly used and significantly used, say CC2 1/2. BV4-OQ8-CC2 1/2 = $592; sharp call at $600. The refinished stock might knock off a few bucks if it does not fit to the rest of the gun. The unusually high condition might add a bit in the right places.
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,983 Likes: 298
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 2,983 Likes: 298 |
Geez, I wonder where I learned that?  I think it's easier to ball park a less expensive gun. A $100.00 disagreement is a much greater % of the value. More error margin.
Out there doing it best I can.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642 Likes: 1 |
Hello Lagopus,
Nice gun!
JC
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance." Charles Darwin
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Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 78
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 78 |
SIT,
The reinforced frame seems to be typical of the F. or Fs. Dumoulin guns. Referring again the Guns Intl. site you will see significant differences in the level of finishes on the four or five guns listed. The guns advertised by doublegunhq and boisegun have both been on the site for quite sometime as has the 16ga. sideplated gun at Cabelas. The 16ga. is the twin to my gun with minor variation in the engraving and the carving of the fences. The doublegunhq's ad seems to be close to the condition of the gun you have but your gun shows slightly more engraving. I would think that about $750. would be right.
Note that most of these guns are light for guage. My 16 is 5lbs. 8ozs. For those conjecturing about date codes, my gun is marked '43. I fully admit to Drew's hesitation in interpreting said codes.
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Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4
Boxlock
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OP
Boxlock
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 4 |
Well thank you all!
I concur that the gun is a $600 to $700 gun and your comments have reinforced my beliefs. With less name recognition, yet quality construction, plus the fact that several have continued to be listed on the Guns Intl. site for a few hundred more $$ without moving, etc.....bring us to the range Rocketman and others have pointed to.
thanks again for your help,
Terry
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