doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Model 12 skeet gun..............

Today I was at the local gun shop to pick up supplies. He had a nice Model 12 for sale that had WS-1 stamped on the barrel. It had a milled rib. When I asked what the barrel lengths was, he got out a tape and when we measured it, it was 24". The gun looked original. But I couldn't figure out the 24" barrels. Anyone ever seen one? Could it be a special order. I didn't really look at the serial numbers that closely, but I seem to recall when I glanced at them it was 779,xxx something. What do you guys think?

Was that the inside measurement?

Made in late '38 or early '39 depending on the last three numbers.

Might have been cut for a Cutts. Seems to me that 90% of that era guns seem to have Cutts. I know that is well above the real number. When I see a short barrel gun like that I think of a Cutts gun that has been returned to non Cutts status.

I forgot to mention, it is a 20 gauge. Yes, we measured down to where the barrel end of the barrel is inside the receiver (without taking the barrel off. It hasn't been cut. But the rib is probably a Simmons rib, although it is not stamped Simmons on the side of it. The vented rib has the square posts milled to the barrel and when you look down the muzzle end of the rib, the rib looks like it slides down over the posts. So, I am pretty sure it is a Simmons rib. But, I think it is a special order 24" barrel that came with no rib and was later sent to Simmons to have a rib put on it. It is a nice gun in nice shape. The wood is in nice shape, but is not high grade at all. He is asking $1500.00 for it.

No offense intended, but I don't know about it being a true Cutts gun. A true Cutts- Model 12 (from what I always understood) is not supposed to have any choke markings stamped on the barrel. That is one of the ways you know it is a true Cutts gun. This one (looks like it) has the original WS-1 stamp on the barrel. And I don't know why someone around here would change a Cutts gun. Model 12s with Cutts around here right now are a really hot item in this area. It is really odd. But a nice gun. I am so tempted.

Cutts Compensator's were made by Lyman and sold after market by gun shops...the barrels of the recipient guns were usually not marked with anything....just a local gun shop installation, saw and add......Lyman did a great marketing job here and many shooters had these things added...to all kinds of guns....just think how many fine barrels were ruined.....so your model 12 probably has been cut and then re-cut to remove the Cutts Compensator.....or it is a mail order short barrel from Winchester.........Poly choke was the after market competitor of Cutts....and just as junky....

Is the choke still a true Winchester WS-1 in profile and length.

BTW, many WS-1 gun had a Cutts attached after market. God knows why?!!!!

A Winchester "factory" Cutts installation is supposed to be on a barrel turned with an integral, sword-hilt-like shoulder against which the Cutts seats and gun marked only "SKEET" mag tube and receiver. Is that right, Don?

jack

The Flange-barrel Cutts Model 12s never came with a rib. The small-bore Model 12s were only offered with plain barrels or solid rib barrels until the introduction of the "Winchester Special Ventilated Rib", read that Simmons Rib, around 1954.

The Winchester Model 12, with a Cutts Compensator was the gun for Skeet Shooting for over two decades. They continued to be used on the Remington Model 1100's when they first started to displace the Model 12 as the Skeet gun of choice.

The "Cutts" was not a fad or fashion statement kind of item. It was put on so many Model 12 Skeet guns for a very good reason. It Worked!
It had three advantages over basic pump guns of the era. It added weight to the end of the barrel, aiding a smooth swing and assisting follow through. It did in fact mitigate a good deal of recoil, both because of its weight and because of the vents that directed gases both up and down, (at the cost of a few ear drums). It also, because of its bulbous nature, allowed the end of the barrel to stand out more clearly in one's peripheral vision. Making it easier for the brain to position it for the shot while one's main focus was (and always should be), on the target.
As the Automatics gained favor in Skeet, one of its advantages, lower recoil, became moot. As the change to a mounted gun and sustained lead technique became prevalent, its other advantages became less important as well. The automatics also were a little more front heavy than the Model 12's.
Then came the move to over/unders and eventually, tubed Skeet sets, pushing the Model 12's with Cutts into the history books.

The conventional wisdom, as stated above, about true Factory Cutts guns having no choke markings, may or may not be true. Winchester sent many Model 12s, to Lyman to have the Cutts attached. Some sources claim that all of the Model 12 Cutts were attached by Lyman. If so, I'm not sure what a Factory Cutts is. Its a little like the "factory" ribs that were really done by Simmons.