doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 28 ga Model 12

I have the opportunity to buy a Winchester Model 12 in 28 gauge at what appears to be a good price. How do I make sure it is an original 28 gauge gun and not a conversion?

No Model 12 experts out there than can help me out?

Pardner, you're not getting much action on your request, so I'll give you what I have.
The following info comes from a partial "print-out" I made from a thread on gunshop.com some years ago that also deals with your question. This undated partial "print-out" is scotch taped onto the inside cover of my copy of "The Winchester Model 12" by George Madis. Sam is addressing Chuck in the print-out.
"Chuck,
My friend who had two has sold them. And they're too rich for my blood. Anyway, if you look at any 20, 16, or 12, holding the gun so as to see the underside left frame interior, you'll note that the cutoff fits into a milled raceway in the frame. On the above three gauges the raceway runs about exactly parallel to the lower left edge of the frame. On 28s (real ones) the raceway is distinctly angled so that it runs farther from the edge of the frame as you go forward.
Nothing subtile about it. If you can compare a real 28 to the other gauges it's immediately obvious. And this is the reason Winchester stamped the rear receiver with a 28...not so as to make life easier for collectors.
Sam." End quote.
IIRC, to see the "28" marked on the rear receiver, I believe you have to remove the buttstock....but I'm not positive.
There are undoubtedly other clues to ID a "fake" 28GA Model 12, but this is the only reference I have.
Hope this helps.

Take the buttstock off and I believe the guage is stamped on the reciever extension or somewhere on the back of the reciever. I'm going from a 30 year old memory here.

Ian,

The story is true. I'm sure about what I was looking at. It was a prewar skeet gun. The problem is that this particular M-12 may only be an anecdote in WW history.

There are so many 28 ga forgeries out there. I have to wonder if real ones are as rare as M-42 deluxes? Most non-WW-original 28s are easy to spot, built-up 20 ga conversions.

Other 28s that appeared otherwise original, and having the 28 ga stamp at rear, had the 28 ga cutoff in a standard 16/20 ga configured raceway. Don't know if the 28 ga raceway was something WW did for only a very narrow period - I wasn't paying attention to the SNs at those times (lesson: keep clear accurate records!!).

But remember this, there are a great many WW proof stamps floating around - you can find them on the GB every so often. They are bought and they are used. The GB is flooded with originally round bbl 12s and 42s now having a rib and an offset proof stamp correctly located. How difficult is it to stamp a 28 on the back of a receiver? (Yes, you must remove the buttstock to look.)

Hopefully Eightbore will be along to comment, but I got into this game too late to be taking chances on a 28 ga M-12.......unless I find one whose provenance cannot be contested.

Sam

I good bet that the Cody museum will have the info you need, on a gun of this expense, I wouldn't chance it to something that can be phonied by a good smith that knows what to do. I believe that a letter would be money well spent, and besides if it turns out phony, you can prove it and perhaps buy the gun for much less to have a "shooter" if that's what you want. I have owned 2 orginal M12 28's in my short life both bought, both traded (for doubles) The only reason I bought them was the price was very fair, and I happened to find them at tax return time!! Good luck, Madis wrote an excellent book, and don't hesitate to use the Cody museum.

I recommend a heaping scoop of caution on this purchase. Most everyone knows that 28 bore M-12's are valuable. SOooo, the chances of a bargain are remote. If you can buy it like it was a fake and use it for a shooter, fine. However, if you are going to pay anything for origanility, make sure it has an unaltered serial that "books" for a 28. Take a look at the serials under high magnification and strong light. If you get pressure to buy it, run, don't walk, unless it is priced as a shooter.

Thanks very much everyone. I will proceed with caution.

There is no information on 28 gauge originality at Cody. There is no serial number that "books" as a 28 gauge. Anyone can punch a 28 on the back of a receiver. As Sam H. says, the cutoff slot can be both ways. I have been buying Model 12s for fifty years, have a very nice collection, but I would not touch a 28 gauge at retail prices or half of retail. They are too hard to buy and too hard to sell.