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Joined: Feb 2007
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 112 |
Jani, ellenbr the photos that you posted regarding the Sauer tubes without extentsion are for a LeFaucheux (sp)action which is from a completely different time period (much earlier and much different action)than Jani's illustrated gun. Here is what we do know for certain. No. Sauer Serial number. No cave man with stamp. If I had to "guess" as to what I am seeing here, it is that the Gun was/is a "lunch box special" made with parts smuggled out of the Sauer plant and finished in some out workers basement in Suhl. That guess is as far as I am willing to go as to what Jani's gun actually may be. Jeff S.
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,770 Likes: 182
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,770 Likes: 182 |
Jeff:
I realize that the LeFaucheux is earlier, but it can't be all that much earlier, and suspect the serial number on the LeFaucheux to be in the earlier pre-mechanized serial number set. The cartridge would suggest post 1871 for military and probably post 1876 for sporting. If the components suggest Sauer source, I might concur, but I think it was made in Zella Saint Blasii for now.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Joined: Aug 2007
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,770 Likes: 182 |
  I many try to obtain a better pic of the hammers & pin configuration if I can locate the source. I'll have to look but I think this Sauer Lefaucheux longarm was pictured in Dixon's text. But it would fall in the 1876 to mid 1880 period also. During this period Sauer could have easily and may have sourced many of its components or longarms. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8 |
Jeff,
I find your "lunch box special" theory unrealistic. No basement worker would dare to engrave J.P. SAUER & SOHN SUHL on such a gun. IMHO your perception of central European gunmaking in the pertinent period is oversimplified. Listen to Raimey and learn...
With kind regards,
Jani
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,770 Likes: 182
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,770 Likes: 182 |
Jani:
Ha, Ha, Ha, I get a really big chuckle in your "Listen to Raimey and learn ..." as you may be putting a little to much confidence my way. My 1st thought, which I've been attempting to substainate, is that the frame, locks and hammers are from the Lefaucheux period while the tubes are from either the very late 1880s or 1890-1892. Note on the Sauer Lefaucheux example from Dixon's text??? that although you can't see it due to my poor pic effort, there is something engraved like "Sauer & Sohn", etc. Jani's example has the same available area but is blank. Also the pin configuration is all but exact. A little more frame filing but the frames just might be the same length and look to be of the same variety. Even the triggerguard bow looks as if it is asking to accept a horn insert. It looks to be a mix of components, some from the Lefaucheux period and some from the commencement of the fluid steel period. All the above hinges on the fact that all were playing by the German proofhouse rules.
Kind Regards,
Raimey
rse
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8 |
Jeff,
I seem to overreact regarding your "lunch box special" theory; I'm sorry about that.
With kind regards,
Jani
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 1,763 Likes: 8 |
Raimey,
I've seen the pictures you kidly gathered before but now in proper perspective they tell something more. The fancy "red" Sauer has same hammers as mine, while the fences are quite similar; mine are taller of course. The "Dixon" Sauer is surprisingly similar to mine in some important points as you showed us. So bit by bit, the picture is getting more and more clear - for what I thank you.
With kind regards,
Jani
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,770 Likes: 182
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 10,770 Likes: 182 |
Here's Mr. Emery's Sauer DR for comparision:    Glad to do it Jani and I hope I can add more. Kind Regards, Raimey rse
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Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 112
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2007
Posts: 112 |
Not trying to get into a pissing match on this thread but here is the thing. ellenbr photo link shows photos of an early Lefeux sauer with a s/n of 12763 on the cape gun. Owner states in the description that it has a Crown N. I believe that the "1940" number that is shown on the barrel may possibly be an armory inventory number, not a proof date. If that is the case, then the actual sauer s/n is likely the 12763 nunber shown on the tube, forward of the lug. If that is also the case then the 1871-1876 time period that ellenbr notes is applicable and here is the importand part...the Sauer s/n on the cape gun actually fits with what is currently known re. Sauer production. As an aside, an other item of special note on the barrels: "J.P. SAUER U SHOH SUHL" Note the 'U' is an abreviation for "Und" which is Deutche for "and". The very earliest Sauer guns are also ocassionaly seen with "I.P. SAUER" The "I" being the Deutche equivelent of "J".
Anyway and now back to Jani's gun. What do we know for certain? No Serial number. No Sauer trademark. It has a Crown R (Reproof). In addition I will ad the following from what I see in the photos: The fences are very tall and much different (much taller) than what I have ever encountered on early Sauer hammer guns. Also, what I see is a frame and lock that appears to bear characteristics of Austrian influence (for those that observe such things) Lastly the barrels are marked J.P. Sauer And(?)Sohn.
My lunch box theory presented earler in this thread while plausable is also very unlikely. We do know for certain that Sauer and Sohn did occasionally supply barrel assemblys and supply components for the trade. (The most noteable examples are those complete Sauer barrel assy's based on their 505006 patent supplied to Lindner/Daly and a few other makers)
I currently beleive that Janis gun is AUSTRIAN made with barrels supplied by Sauer (as noted by Daryl H) and reproofed (Crown R)at some time in its past. the interesting thing about Austrian guns is that there are Austrian made guns "out there" WITH OUT out serial numbers that were produced well after 1912. In my own collection I have a side lock made by August Bitner and proofed in 1915 WITHOUT a serial number. (I have the proof records from the Weipert facility)
Lastly, Jani I do not take offense at your previous post but would ask that keeping an open mind when it comes to "mysterys" such as your gun will lead us all to a greater understanding of German and middle European practices of producing guns. Jeff Stephens
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