doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com This could be good...right?

A new gun store opened here about two months ago, locally owned by enthusiasts,small shop, maybe 100 guns for now, mostly sporting stuff. Now some of you here know that over the last 10 years or so I have been doing barrels and wood, along with repairs on mostly doubles for uhh, friends and I have honed my skills pretty well over the years. So..before this place even opened I stuck my head in the door and asked if they needed any help in the way of simple gun smithing. Mounting scopes, cleaning and minor repairs. they said that they were just opening but I should come back later when the are really open, which I did. Well it's a 3 man shop, all related to another, and as I was dropping in weekly, they were asking me to do stuff and paying me either in trade, or cash for simple stuff. So I asked if I could move some tools in and set hours two days a week there to do things they had either set aside for me, or appointments they would make for me. They call me even when I'm at home whenever they get a double gun they need info or advice on. Lately I have been keeping the two day a week schedule and I take some "homework" in to keep me busy when there is nothing going on from the store. So now I'm one of the gang and they refer to me as the "shotgun guy" to the customers. Now this place has a lower level that is going to waste unused, perfect to set up a real shop and move my boiling tanks, tools etc into and set up shop. My wheels are turning, can you see where this is going?

Ok so two days ago a buddy of mine calls me and tells me he picked up a used once stock duplicator from an estate of a deceased gun smith for $175.00! It's one of the ones on ebay and gunbroker listed for $1,100.00! I was at the shop that day and told the guys the news but that I really had no place to put it. The owner quickly said " Bring it here and put it downstairs".
I'm thinking he was opening a door for me. When we moved it in yesterday the owner was not present as he owns another biz as well, but the other two were there and help Charlie and I get it in. we're old so the help was much appreciated. Once that was done and Charlie was gone we were all down there looking at it and decided to test the water on moving in all the way and doing all my work there, with some kind of arrangement like I do all the shop work in exchange for the space to do my own stuff that comes in from my contacts. It was met well with a " I think that could be done" reply.

So..my question to you all is. How do you think I should work this? He has the FFL and of course everything that comes in the door and stays for longer than what is it 24 hrs?, must be logged. Rather than put that burden on him, should I apply for my own FFL now that I am in an already in an approved facility and keep my own books? This would help me greatly for tax purposes, etc. Should I set myself up as an LLC? What do you all think in general, and what would you call a fair deal regarding "work for rent"? Sorry this is so long but I value every bodies opinions here and I know some of you have similar stories. What think yee brain trust?

I can't count to ten and as a journalist have no business acumen but it sounds like you now really live in Valhalla to me. Regards, King

Dubbletrubble:

What you describe sounds very good, but you always have a probability that "things go wrong" when you deal with other persons in a non well established bussiness situation.
You already mention that there are 3 men in that bussiness and you are the 4th.
People are good until they don´t If the bussiness prospers and more money are generated, the "good persons" could change and they can "remove you" from the bussiness easy just because you are in that place only by "mouth agreement"
Four persons "assosiated" in a small bussiness are a lot of "heads" and sooner or latter that will bring discrepancies between them.
I do not want to tell this to disapoint you, but to have "precaution"; at least talk about that, if for any reason you decided to leave, all the tools tha belong to you can be removed from the store in the moment you need.
Please do not misunderstand my coments, I wish you all the luck and go ahead, but try to put your situation as clear as posible to avoid troubles in the future.

Regards,

As pointed out in the previous post, if things go wrong and close unexpectedly or go bankrupt, what about your "things"?
I would get someting in writing so that you don't loose out.

First of All Congratulations! You get to live your dream.
Now the work starts.

As far as the relationship with the shop upstairs, there are commonly 3 different ways these things are done.

Straight up rent-
You make a deal on your space, and you live and die by your efforts. Charge him for everything you do for them, pay your expenses, and keep your entire operation separate and distinct. Meet all the independent gunsmith requirements. You buy from him, he buys from you. Pay all your own bills.
If you give him a chart of fees for your work, and then later he wants to take 25 mountings or whatever off the rent, you're OK. But, landlords tend to expect to buy at the wholesale price (hence the chart beforehand). They hate to part with cash.

Split the labor-

You allow them to sell all parts, and pay all the taxes, and you vend service to them, and split the value on an agreed apon percentage. Advantage is less paperwork for your efforts. These agreements usually end up with both parties un happy. Issues such as who's work get done first around deer season, How you get your cut etc, are always thorny. When it's slow for him, he might be resistant to cash you out at the end of the week. And I stress cash you out entirely, every week. But, they will probably want cash for rent, because "You are using my utilities!" That always seems to pop up as time goes on. Expenses aren't magic, they cost. So, have a clear agreement on them. Otherwise, friction ensues.

Direct Employee, limited hours.
The third way this can be done, is as an employee of the shop. It's like having two jobs really. You start with a pre-agreed apon chart of what you get for what you do. You work exclusively for them from 11-4, and do all your private work outside that bracket. This scenario meets labor dept standards, as long as you are making at least minimum wage. The problems arise when the cash register tape says the smith is making more than the guy with all the business risk. And of course various taxes and paperwork for what you do privately.
Companies routinely want to renegotiate the commission schedule after they see who's making what off it.

I would be very surprised if your landlord doesn't want a taste of your private commissions though. Especially if there is some vagueness about origin of work. Are you directing work away from the shop as a way to put more in your pocket? These are all questions and issues to hammer out before you fire up the jets.


FWIW, You can replace gunshop with: Beauty parlor, Shoe repair, leatherwork, glasswork, fingernails, eyewear, lawnmower repair, furniture assembly and repair, bicycles, motorcycles, snowmobiles, tool grinding,and on and on. The idea is based on sharing of costs, and the craftsperson supplying an attractive,add-on revenue to the existing shop, without the existing shop having to start doing something new they are unfamiliar with. Or don't want to invest in.

But if you are clear up front about how you want the deal to work, it can work. These arrangements work everyday for people all over the place.

It seems hard at first, but trust me when I say, make a clear deal both of you can live with up front. And then get your duplicator going cause I have some clunkers that need buttstocks.

I owned my own art gallery and studio for four years with a friend/partner, despite advice not to do business with friends. We were set up as an S Corp, and I had my studio in the back, etc. All was well, but when it turned out that my work sold well and his didn't, I had to close it down because I wasn't a separate entity from him. Too bad too because I was selling a lot of work.

My advice is, operate as a separate business. Keep your own books, your own FFL, keep your own profits, and it could be mutually beneficial for both parties. You have the benefit of customers walking through the door, and they have the benefit of your skills. It's a win win. If it goes south for some reason, you can bail with no problems, or even better, they can bail and you can stay (I wish I had done that ).

Good luck!

Get a lawyer. When my son-in-law set up his business with two partners, I urged him (Told him/Directed him)to see a lawyer who specializes in that sort of stuff. After the meeting, he came back to me and said "Damn you!" I asked what was the matter. He said "The lawyer made me feel like a fool. He kept asking questions I couldn't answer, that I should have considered." Long story short, the lawyer drew up an agreement that all have now signed. BTW, I'm not a lawyer, but I did stay at my daughter's house last night.

all great advice. good and bad. keep it coming. what about a separate ffl?

Unless you're going to be working as an employee or partner, your own FFL seems necessary.

You risk, of course, having your hobby become a profession with all the obligation that goes with that.

Difficult to keeps things 'fun', especially when dealing with the parade of people seeking free consulting work who tend to clutter up gun shops and impede your getting useful work done.

Good luck. We need all the good craftsmen we can get.

I'm with Clapper and Mark and I would certainly recommend your own FFL. You don't want those "jack-booted thugs" kicking down your door. Best wishes with it, for you and the store above.