May
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4
5 6 7 8 9 10 11
12 13 14 15 16 17 18
19 20 21 22 23 24 25
26 27 28 29 30 31
Who's Online Now
7 members (bsteele, gasgunner, GETTEMANS, cpa, Jeremy Pearce, 1 invisible), 1,141 guests, and 6 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics38,523
Posts545,790
Members14,420
Most Online1,344
Apr 29th, 2024
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,881
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,881


MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014




Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 704
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 704
About time for me to drop in my 2c worth. There is no doubt that the overcooked overbrittle low number action, waiting to blow up like a grenade with normal pressures, is virtually nonexistent. And arguably those that were going to pop did so in the 20th C. But equally there is no doubt but that among the 800,000 there were at least a very few that were defective. A handful may still be with us, even fewer built into nice sporters. So I long ago adopted for my own rule not to own or shoot a low number rifle, receiver, or bolt, with any ammunition. Others like Michael may rely on the statistics and use them with good cheer. Not me, I am chicken.

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,259
Likes: 77
LRF Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,259
Likes: 77
mk, i for one like your 2 cents worth

and
Quote:
states that in ninety nine percent of the cases the accident has been caused by an obstruction in the bore

So what happened in the other 1% of the cases?

If the 1% were due to steel failure the 1% of failures can be taken against the entire population which in this case is 800,000. Or 8000 guns that would statistically have the same issue.

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 465
WJL Offline
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Sep 2008
Posts: 465
LRF that was 1% of failures were not due to bore obstruction. That does not translate to 1% of all low number rifles.

Jerry Liles

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,881
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,881
8,000 ???????? Only 57 rifles burst total!

There were about 800,000 SA, 285,000 RIA made, or over a million in all, and they were continued in service until superseded by the M1 rifle. From 1917 to 1929 inclusive, records were kept of all accidents to receivers of Springfield rifles, and during that time of the 800,000 low-numbered Springfields there were 33 reported burst or about 1-24,000. Of the 285,000 RIA LN receivers there were 24 reported burst or about 1 in 11,800. There were 9 cases of sever injuries; no one was killed, and in most cases there were no injuries or only minor ones.


MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014




Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 75
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 75
Originally Posted By: Michael Petrov
Roy Dunlap worked for the Ordnance Dept, in the field, during WWII where the low number 1903 was still in service.

“Ordnance Went Up Front” by Roy F. Dunlap Samworth 1948 (speaking of low-number rifles) “I saw hundreds of these in the war, used with all types of issue ammunition including armor piercers with a rather high chamber pressures. These low number actions are safe with practically all government and commercial ammunition in .30-06 caliber, with the possible exception of very high-pressured target loads or heavy-bullet hunting cartridges.”


And by 1978 he was saying "Not all low number Springfield's are unsafe. Most are not. Some are unsafe and there is no way to tell which are safe and which are not, so the whole lot was condemned."

He must have thought about.

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 674
Likes: 13
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 674
Likes: 13
Basically, if any danger exists it is so small as to be inconsequential. I daresay one stands a much higher risk of catastrophe befalling him by getting in his car and driving on I-95. How many of us regularly fire Krags and not bat an eye? Now there is an accident waiting to happen if there ever was one, but we (including myself) fire them with impunity. The early '03 was essentially the same steel formula but in a much better designed action. I have never understood the attitude toward low # Springfields.

I wonder how many words in print have been devoted to hashing over this old rhubarb during the last 90 years? If the Ordnance Dept. had never brought it to light we would have blithely gone along as if nothing were wrong and all was right with the world.

JMO.

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 37
Sidelock
Offline
Sidelock

Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 37
The problem was the method of controlling heat treatment. For years seasoned technicians heated treated the actions to the "proper" temperature. They way they determined the temperature was by watching the metal heat up to the point that it turned the "proper" color. When production was stepped up, less seasoned technicians (some very young) were hired to assist manufacturing, including the heat treatment process. Some of these new technicians were better than others in reading the color of the metal. Determining the temperature of the metal by its color was very subjective and it is believed that some actions, rare as they may be, were over heated and became too brittle. New methods of determining metal temperature were adopted and old actions were double heat treated whenever they went in for depot maintenance.

The chance of getting a low numbered action that was originally over hardened, and was not later re-hardened, is very slim but still very real. Even the ODCMP warns against shooting low numbered Springfields.

My main reference is The Springfield 1903 Rifles by Brophy.

Quote:
From http://www.thecmp.org/m1903.htm

*WARNING ON “LOW-NUMBER” SPRINGFIELDS
M1903 rifles made before February 1918 utilized receivers and bolts which were single heat-treated by a method that rendered some of them brittle and liable to fracture when fired, exposing the shooter to a risk of serious injury. It proved impossible to determine, without destructive testing, which receivers and bolts were so affected and therefore potentially dangerous.

To solve this problem, the Ordnance Department commenced double heat treatment of receivers and bolts. This was commenced at Springfield Armory at approximately serial number 800,000, and at Rock Island Arsenal at exactly serial number 285,507. All Springfields made after this change are commonly called “high number” rifles. Those Springfields made before this change are commonly called “low-number” rifles.

In view of the safety risk the Ordnance Department withdrew from active service all “low-number” Springfields. During WWII, however, the urgent need for rifles resulted in the rebuilding and reissuing of many “low-number” as well as “high-number” Springfields. The bolts from such rifles were often mixed during rebuilding, and did not necessarily remain with the original receiver.

Generally speaking, “low number” bolts can be distinguished from “high-number” bolts by the angle at which the bolt handle is bent down. All “low number” bolts have the bolt handle bent straight down, perpendicular to the axis of the bolt body. High number bolts have “swept-back” (or slightly rearward curved) bolt handles.

A few straight-bent bolts are of the double heat-treat type, but these are not easily identified, and until positively proved otherwise ANY straight-bent bolt should be assumed to be “low number”. All original swept-back bolts are definitely “high number”. In addition, any bolt marked “N.S.” (for nickel steel) can be safely regarded as “high number” if obtained directly from CMP (beware of re-marked fakes).

CMP DOES NOT RECOMMEND FIRING ANY SPRINGFIELD RIFLE WITH A ”LOW NUMBER” RECEIVER. Such rifles should be regarded as collector’s items, not “shooters”.

CMP ALSO DOES NOT RECOMMEND FIRING ANY SPRINGFIELD RIFLE, REGARDLESS OF SERIAL NUMBER, WITH A SINGLE HEAT-TREATed “LOW NUMBER” BOLT. SUCH BOLTS, WHILE HISTORICALLY CORRECT FOR DISPLAY WITH A RIFLE OF WWI OR EARLIER VINTAGE, MAY BE DANGEROUS TO USE FOR SHOOTING.

THE UNITED STATES ARMY GENERALLY DID NOT SERIALIZE BOLTS. DO NOT RELY ON ANY SERIAL NUMBER APPEARING ON A BOLT TO DETERMINE WHETHER SUCH BOLT IS “HIGH NUMBER” OR “LOW NUMBER”.

Last edited by Grenadier; 06/02/10 03:23 PM.

~
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 262
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 262
As liability suits have escalated, gun writers and gun sellers have been more and more cautious about all things in regards to firearms. I can't imagine that a rifle that has been in use for close to 100 years is suddenly going to be affected by a normal load.

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,881
Sidelock
***
OP Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 6,881
Originally Posted By: joelblack88
As liability suits have escalated, gun writers and gun sellers have been more and more cautious about all things in regards to firearms. I can't imagine that a rifle that has been in use for close to 100 years is suddenly going to be affected by a normal load.


I agree, you can write a hundred articles about how bad they are but not a single one will get published if you show other information.

When I published the Sedgley article my mail box was full of folks telling me how dangerous they were. Never mind that not a single one has ever failed.

I never advocate that others shoot them I just think that in order to make an informed decision they might need more info.

For decades the NRA and DCM said to have the headspace checked, use good brass and don't overload. Now even the auction companies have a warning not to shoot them.

If there were ANY so called burnt receivers I wounder how they made it passed the proof test. If the rifle was a 30-03 then when the barrel was set back it would have yet another proof test.


MP Sadly Deceased as of 2/17/2014




Page 3 of 4 1 2 3 4

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2024 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u11+hw1 Page Time: 0.063s Queries: 36 (0.042s) Memory: 0.8644 MB (Peak: 1.9000 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2024-05-13 19:05:24 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS