doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Nobody knows! Need help identifying!

A friend suggested I post on this site and I will start off by saying I am a woman. A woman that knows almost nothing about firearms. That being said, I have recently acquired an antique shotgun from my grandfather. I would like to sell it. I have pics of it but I'm not sure how to post them on here. Hoping someone can help with that also. I have taken it to 'gun experts', Cabella's Gun Library, and I have researched online extensively. Here is what I know: Probably from Belgium, pinfire, 20 gauge double barrel. The bottom of the rifle, and a few other places are made of buffalo horn. The expert at Cabella's was fascinated with the engraving and told me I have an extremely rare shotgun. My pics do it no justice. He also thought it was from early to mid 1800's. The engraving has a pic of a dog, a fox, 2 pheasants, and a rabbit. There are the initials CFW and the numbers 6388 under the barrel. Anyone with anything would be appreciated! I have a few photos here: http://www.thefirearmsforum.com/showthread.php?t=78419

Others more knowledgable on here will be along to help you shortly. I do not think it is a Pin fire, but a needle gun. Pinfire typically had hammers to drop onto a pin projecting from the side of the cartridge, above the barrels. I am not well versed in these but would think it more likely to be from about 1850 -1870 after which cartridges as we currently know them replaced earlier ignition systems quickly. There will be some proof marks on it if made in either France or Belgium to identify the source country and perhaps more info on date of manufacture. I think they are fairly rare because the technology was awkward and fragile, competed with sturdy percussion systems and dissappeared quickly with the advent of brass cartridges in a very short period. The majority of them were military arms I believe while this is a sporting arm.

I believe Jerry is correct. It appears to be a needle gun. It may be early Dreyse. Dreyse started with muzzle loaders before his famous cartridge design. If it is, then this one was not made for the common soldier. It should have some other markings. Some close up photo's of the gun, the engraving and any markings would help.

If this is an early Dreyse, then, judging by the limited view with the current photo's, it is a museum piece.

This shows the later Dreyse.


Pete

Barella, Teschner/Collath, Haeteg, Leue, Miller & Greiß, Stiegele(?), and many others made centerfire doubles either based on the Von Dreyse's needlefire or converted needlefire. He worked a stint in Pauli's(Lefaucheux's??) shop for a time before returning to Germany. There's nothing slack about it but the wood is rather plain and doesn't have the adornment seen on those examples supplied/sold to the courts. The triggerguard bow, buffalo horn buttplate & sculpted buffalo horn for the pistol grip may indicate it was from the 1880 or 1890s. If from the 1890s there should be proofmarks on the flats. Also is the word "Papp" anywhere on the example and does the tube set move forward and up when the front lever is rotated? Or does the tubes set swing side to side? For now I don't think it is a needfire but a centralfire or converted needlefire. Sometimes when there are 3 initials present, the first 2 stand for the craftsman and the last for the town where his shop was. But then again the craftsmen had 3 sometimes 4 names and it could be all their initials. "CFW" sort of rings a bell but nothing definite. There was a C. Wackeß of Suhl but I don't know his middle initial. My 1st guess was that it was made in Suhl but marks could prove otherwise.

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

barbco1974:
If you don't mind indicating the general area where you reside; this piece could and should probably be inspected by one of the many knowledgeable members we have here. That would certainly be my recommendation.
Jim

Is it rifled or smoothbore double? Johann Niklaus von Dreyse, 1787 - 1867, was the inventor of the Zündnadelgewehr/needlefire and supplied some 60k examples to the Prussian army circa 1840. His son Franz von Dreyse was born in Sömmerda in 1819(some give 1822)(to 1894) and obtained a patent in 1874 for a convertible needlefire/centralfire system with Georg Kufahl in the mix with patents somehow. Rheinische Metallwaaren & Maschinenfabrik(RM&M) absorbed Waffenfabrik von Dreyse in 1901. The initials "CFW" might be for something like "CF" Waffenfabrik?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Can someone tell me where or how to post pics? That way I can take some close up. Looks like all I can do is show the link to photos. I live in Rochester, Wa. ellenbr asked if it is rifled or smoothbore double? Also, you asked which way the lever moves when rotated and it moves side to side. You will have to tell me what to look for...I know nothing about shotguns. I have searched high and low for any markings and I'm not seeing anything. Is something like this even sellable? I guess I'm trying to ask if there is a market for a shotgun like this?

Please be very careful at this time as to not get taken by the unscrupulous who may tell you this is worthless!GOOD LUCK

Here is the faq.
http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=148935#Post148935

Pete

Barbco

see this link

http://www.doublegunshop.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=148935#Post148935

yes it is sell able, I would not say there is a huge demand for such a wonderful gun, but there is a buyer out there somewhere.

heed suddenthunders advice, hold off on any offers unless you are amazed at what there are offering, as in multi thousands of dollars.

H&H