doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Hinge Pin Survey

Geno, I just read something in an early Lefever catalog or advertisement about holding the action closed with bare hands after removing locking devices. The shooter was able to hold the barrels down while firing, due to the close fit of the doll's head extension.

Well Jim, seems like you always want an arguement. I only brought the paint stick up as a reference to some that think that dirt, fowlings etc. will not be attracted to the grease or oil. The example of the paint stick, grease on top, then oil film, then nothing, a little wind with dirt blowing around or a mouse, and see what is stuck to the stick. I'll bet the grease and the oil have particles in them, and the part with nothing has just that, nothing.
By the way the sticky mouse paper is not going to catch a mouse if there is nothing to "attract" him on to it.

The story of holding the action closed with the thumb just proves there is no great force at work, that's trying to break the gun open. It says nothing about the hook and pin not having a very important job to do.

Actually it was a demonstration done by Winchester extolling their design of their then new Winchester Model 21.

So, Geno,
Are you going to keep "swindling" us with tall tales of how great your PTFE gun lubricants are?
The chairman of Duponts comments notwithstanding?
I think you and jOe should get together to milk a sperm whale, and add PTFE to whatever you get out of the whale-must be a million suckers that would pay lots of dollars for the, uh, result-twicebarrel comes to mind, anyway.

Best,
Ted

Jim, tommorow I will make one photo of one old hinge pin, that has been replaced and messurements for you to understand, that there is nothing involved in pin wearness besides greese with "dust" and open-close movements.
BTW, don't you know clay shooting guns is allways remain in better condition, than hunting ones, though clay guns shoot much more rounds. What d'you think why is that?

Ted, come back here when you'll get smarter and not so ugly.

3-in-1 + petroleum jelly = RIG. Well it's the same color anyway and mixed in a RIG can, it's hard to tell the difference. That's why I still have my RIG can long after I ran out of RIG. Let us all be vigilant in fighting pin wearness! Actually, it was J. M. Browning or Val or the cleaning lady who fired a Super (genuine B-25 to you, Genady) with the lock block removed and no negatives such as violent rotation about the hinge pin. I currently prefer something slick and thin and Mobil synthetic racing oil pleases me and if it don't please the gun, well it doesn't squeak enuf to get the grease.

jack

3-in-1 is actually a vegetable oil and petroleum oil blend, if'n it's in the red can-the blue can, with a car or engine on the front, is straight petroleum oil.
Schwinn bicycle company, late of Chicago, IL had a warning against using 3-in-1 on their bike chains or in their three speed hubs, built by Sturmey Archer, due to that fact.
I think it works great for lube while drilling holes, and keep a squirt can of it on the drill press table.

Best,
Ted

For those interested, I would refer you to Don Zutz’s book, “The Double Shotgun” where in Chapter 7 he goes into detail about the three key stresses placed on a double when fired. These are axial force down the bore, radial force which is around the hinge pin and bending force which goes from the breech face through the hinge pin. He specifically says the “radial force pertains to the rotational movement of the barrel assembly around the hinge or knukle pin of a drop-barrel shotgun.” He further says that the “single most important job of a double’s bolting system is minimizing the bending force’s impact on the action frame.” In all cases, the force of this bending goes through the hinge pin, hence the issue of high pressure for short duration. A similar explanation is also in "American Shotgun Design and Performance" by Wallack.
On a Win 21, the water table is unusually long and reduces the bending force by changing the lever arm that is exerted on the action which is why this is one of the strongest double actions. It probably also explains why this can be held closed.
Thanks
Z

I have no idea who was the first to ever fire a break open double with the bolts removed, "BUT" both W W Gereener & D M Lefever stated it as fact long before Win was making a 21 or Browning was making a Super. I don't have a 21 at hand to measure, but I believe the bar on a Lefever is equally as long, if not longer. The 21 of course has absolutely nothing in its design to contain the axial thrust except the hinge pin. The Lefever design assisted it with his square shouldered Doll's Head, with the bolt at the top to also help resist frame bending.
One Shoe don't fit every foot when you go talking gun design.