doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Need Some Enlightenment??

I'd like to hear what light Crossed Chissles can shed on this.

What say ye David?

Perhaps you should obtain a copy of:
"No. 650 Miscellaneous Series.
Diplomatic and Consular Reports.
Belgium.
Report on the Arms Industry of Liege.
Foreign Office.
Presented to both Houses of Parliment by Command of His Majesty, May, 1906." Price Sevenpence Halfpenny.
By Consul-General Sir Cecil Hertslet (Recieved at the Foreign Office April 28, 1906.)

This was an age of protective tariffs. The author specifically mentions the American McKinley Act. It obviously hurt the British makers. While he includes figures for the number of barrels tested by the Liege proof house, he states that Belgian customs only records weights of exports and excludes that from his report. He is concerned with the perception of British guns. He feels that Belgian labor costs are cheaper, p25

"100 tons of damascus steel are exported for the use of makers in the United Kingdom, Italy, Spain, etc." "156,000 double barrels are produced annually." p.17 358,396 doubled barreled guns were proofed. p28 He mentions other parts but gives no figures.

I purchased it because it documents the Belgian proof marks in use for 1906.

Pete

It sounds to me like, somewhat akin to many custom built items of today-if something met your requirements and quality standards why build it yourself. I don't think this belittles the item in any way, nor does it bother me, it comes down to economics on both sellers & buyers part and it always will. Unless it is a high tier gun the London Addy may not mean much, something like British names on "jabc's" but altered slightly, just a sales ploy. Another example would be selling through an agent with a London address, this ruse might not work on one's home turf but guns that went overseas most buyers would not know the difference or care, I have a good example of this in my gun cabinet. Thank you all for your comments thus far. --- John Can.

I don't know how true this is:

"I'd be very interested in what the true experts on this subject have to say on the matter, but my impression from reading and observations from collecting lead me to believe that Birmingham was the primary source of innovation and expertise."

Sure, the A&D action came out of Birmingham along with the Scott spindle, Westley's toplever, Greener Facile Princeps, and the first ejectors (Needham's).

But the Purdey bolt, the Holland-style sidelock action, and the Southgate ejector system all came out of London.

So I don't know which town contributed more. I would have to go through The British Shotgun 1 & 2 to really see.

Regarding expertise, I would bet that the largest number of top gunmakers were in London. For a tradesman, I think that was where the big money was to be made. And in my experience, talent follows money.

Guys like John Robertson and Thomas Southgate could have worked for anyone and lived anywhere. They chose London for a reason. I bet this reason was money.

I don't think any of the makers in the British trade were using actions made in Belgium. BBls - perhaps, maybe damascus bbls on their lower-grade guns. But not on their good to best-grade guns. They had guys in England who could do it.

As for buying actions in Birmingham and finishing them in London, I'm sure it happened. I think Purdeys bar-in-woods actions started out in Birmingham

But that doesn't really bother me. A lot goes into a gun after you have the rough parts. It's all this time, skill, & expertise that separate a Best gun from a nice gun.

OWD

The Beesley self-opening action of 1880, may have been the line in the sand. Soon after this time, the best gun trade centered in London. Greener and Westley's guns were falling out of favor/fashion to the London pattern Sle.
Much is made about the fit and finish of the London made gun - that is until a post like this!
...and then everyone wants to dance around what makes up a London gun.
It's like jazz - just a jam session!

There is no doubt in my mind that the finest artisans of metal working in the guntrade were Birmingham based or trained.Richard Akehurst documents this in his book highlighting the fact that in tests carried out by the Birmingham Proof house 'Black Country' barrels were far superior to Belgiun.The first ever Iron bridge was made in Ironbridge in Shropshire 25 miles from Birmingham.Rapier steel from Toledo used Birmingham know how and currently Bohler of Austria have used Brummie input.Nice to know that in the '60's Britain supplied 36% of the World's Engineering technology now I believe it is down to 13%.
As regards London / Birmingham quality it is an easy explanation.London concentrated on marketing and sales techniques and Birmingham concentrated on manufacture.
H&H used Birmingham workshops and craftsmen,so did Churchill and Purdey.And surprise surprise they still do.But I bet they wouldn't like me to tell you who and where they are.
Suffice to say many 'Best' guns are made in Brum, proofed in London, finished in Brum, sold in London, used in the US.Everyone lived happily everafter.The End.

Thanks for your input. If and when the time comes, A Purdey in my price range comes-up, I'll offered-up Brummie kinda money for the gun. I'll try to save some big bucks, but no doubt be shown the door instead.
I didn't realize that marketing, and sales would cost the shooter some 50K difference. How stupid we are, bet your techy people are down to three percent.
We've all been had - a Purdey indeed!

lOw'e.....if you buy a Purdy try and get one with full length barrels.

I think this is a bit misleading:

"H&H used Birmingham workshops and craftsmen,so did Churchill and Purdey. And surprise surprise they still do. But I bet they wouldn't like me to tell you who and where they are."

Sure, the makers were having lower-grade guns sourced or made in Birmingham. But there best stuff? I don't know. Purdey made those guns in their London factory, as did H&H, Boss, Lang, etc. Some parts may have come from Birmingham, but the guns were being made in London.

After the trade started to die down, say post WW2, that's another story. But I still think a lot of the best stuff was being made in London.

Today, the guns are made wherever they can be made. The orders are so low and the really talented gunmakers so rare, that it doesn't matter where they live or work. It just matters that they're doing the best work possible.

BTW: where are all the pre-WW2 Birmingham sidelocks that compare to a Boss, Purdey, or H&H Royal? I've seen a few, but not many.

Greener's G guns and Facile Princeps are real nice, but better than a top Boss? I think that's pushing it.

Powell made some nice guns, but I don't think they're as nice as London guns. Scott made some decent Premiers, including a few gorgeous Imperial Premiers. But overall,I don't think their 20th-century guns were as nice as the stuff coming out of London at that time.

OWD

Gun handling properties, and then fit and finish gentlemen!
We seem to forget that this was first and foremost to the shooters who wanted the best. Barrels struck well, ejectors nicely timed and true of balance. Second was the gun's over-all quality.

The great Westley Richards, made 9 out of every 10 for export, and for the rough. Their Sle gun was made by AA Brown!
When lesser quality guns are your bread and butter, how can they be counted on for your "Best gun."
Same with the mass-producer, W&C Scott - in today's world, they'd have moved to China, or Turkey - already.