doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Nice Guns, No Serial #'s?

OK - As several members here are aware I recently acquired a nice 14 bore percussion double by W Chance Co. Kind of a dark horse maker, but a couple folks here went above and beyond the call of duty and dug up some detailed history for me, for which I am VERY thankful. This Birmingham gun has NO serial #.

For the past couple years I've been teased and tempted by a gun offered by one of this site's advertisers: A truly lovely percussion double attributed to Boss (name on action plates). This (London?) gun has NO serial #.

Soooo.....what are we to make of this? Is this quandary a bonafide topic of study amongst the firearm illuminati? Is it a recognized practice of some older gun firms in their fledgling years, some of which achieve moderate success and others that may go on to achieve great status?

For the gun buyer/collector, the personal reasoning is a peculiar slant on the adage "buy the gun and not the name"

Surely this situation has arisen much more than just the two examples I've given above. I imagine gun auction houses run into it from time to time. Do they apply some accepted formulae that allows them to determine/verify the maker AND the time period the piece in question was made?

I find this a curious practice from a few different perspectives.

All of the older muzzleloaders that I have had over the years none of them had serial numbers the last a William Moore did not have a serial number. Most states don't consider muzzleloaders as firearms and therefore they are not required. As far as the history of serial number requirements in England I'm not real sure but I'm digging into it for ya.

NONE of my English-Scottish Muzzleloaders have serial numbers.
My 1865 Vintage Cooper Breechloader does not have a serial number either.It will be interesting to know when they became
used routinely.

I have a Purdey hammergun that started out as a percussion gun. It was built in 1847 and then converted by Purdey's to a breechloader in the 1870s. It has a serial number.

Best,

Mike

I believe Donald Dallas makes a mention about many early guns not having serial numbers because it was not required by British law.

After serial numbers were required by British law, some makers did make try-guns that had no serial number because they were not for available for sale to the public.

Some years back I purchased a W & C Scott Pinfire 12ga. It did not have a SN, but did have the customer's name for whom it was built engraved on the rib. A letter to Mr Crawford revealed it to have been made ca 1863-65 under Matthews Patent. He also noted it eas the first "Breechloading" Scott he had reference to which was not SN'd.

He did not specifically say so but it sounded as if he would not have been suprised for it not to have a number had it been a muzzle loader.

All the Westley Richards muzzle loaders I've seen have serial numbers. William & John Rigby began using serial numbers in 1821. Mortimer and the Mantons used serial numbers by the late 1700s. Forsyth & Co. started about 1808. Additionally, my 14-b William Powell & Son (sold in 1848) has a serial number.

For what it is worth, I have never been aware that any British gun MUST have a serial number. I seen plenty from right up to between the wars that had no numbers on them. It usually denotes a trade made gun bought in completely finished, most probably from existing stock. Many have no name engraved on hardened metal either.

My researches of muzzle loading guns by J Blanch & Son have shown a mixed bag of some with numbers and some without. Most of the better examples had numbers but not all.

My personal feeling would be that if the style and quality is right, I would accept it as a Boss.

I guess that's what we're left with, Toby - if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck___________. So in the case of the Boss, I imagine the legal onus would be on the vendor to know for sure the gun is a Boss if they are selling it as such.

As an aside, I'll pipe in with an 1860 Purdey percussion gun having a serial number, and I too have always seen one on a Westley Richards firearm, no matter the action.

Miller - Very interesting story about your correspondence with Mr Crawford. Your initiative and persistence paid off.