doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com A Mystery: the source of frames and forend irons

As a boy I was shattered to learn that most of the great American doubles had barrels supplied in other countries. Now, in old age, I am mystified by the suppliers of frames, trigger plates, forend irons. No one will ever convince me that the W&S sold in the 70's was anything but a flossied up SKB boxlock frame. I have in hand a Sarasqueta #4E Zephyr sidelock imported by Stoeger (when they still had a reputation) in the early 50's. The frame, trigger plate, forend are identical to a Holland and Holland with intercepting sears. It is a fine gun, despite its rather scanty engraving. Somebody is getting Bulls--ting here. There has to have been a single source of these hardwares for the big names to finish as their own. Just as Colt finally was caught in the act of using Uberti parts to reintroduce their black powder series, I cannot believe the veracity claimed by some of the gun makers. Try and figure out, perhaps, how the SKB boxlocks and the W&S wound up having hinge pins intergral with the knuckle of the guns. I was a pretty good amateur machinist in my youth, but I still can't figure out how the hell you acomplish that. I have stirred things up enough (maybe too much). Just my confirmed opinion, Lads. Chops

Somebody say in ain't so

Chops,
There's a company called something like Ermi that produces contract guns/parts or used to.

H&H did contract a boxlock in the seventies or around that time. I thought I read that in the early days, contracting parts/assemblies was the norm for the big guys in London.

I got the impression that at some point, H&H and others brought all or most of the work in-house. I have seen the H&H video showing a full shop of machinery.

Ithaca used E. C. Clapp Forging Co. near Syracuse, NY and Pennsylvania Small Arms for most of their frame forgings. Pittsburgh Forgings Co. made the early M-37 barrel forgings that were then sent to PA Small Arms for boring. Barrels were finished machined at the Ithaca plant. I believe early forgings were done in-house. Early barrels were purchased mostly from Belgium.

All the research in recent years around maker's marks points to the fact that it has always gone on.

Damascus barrels coming out of different makers purchased from the same rolling mill.

Percussion guns show up with the locks engraved "Josh Golcher". In fact that is Joseph Golcher who never left England. His brother James was most likely selling those locks to American makers.

I see Meriden hammer guns with 2 different receiver forgings. An obvious signal they had a supplier. The list goes on.

Get Raimey started about Krupp and the probability they were licensing steel recipes.

Pete

Walt, in some early Baker paperwork I see Ithaca Gun Co listed in the Baker financial sheet.

Chuck, when I see the marvelous precision that my Zephyr 20 ga. Sarasqueta has, if you rose and scroll engraved it, it would look like a London best. I cannot fathom how such wonderful workmanship could be accomplished during the 50's --- at that time for a retail of $144.00. There has to be more to frame making etc. than we know today. I was once a retailer of W&S 700 series doubles under H&R and aside from minor variations was convinced that the origins of these gun were Asian: SKB! I'd really like to know the truth before I take a dirt knap. Chops

Chops:
Here's SKB email address. Why don't you contact them and ask:
Jim


skb@skbshotguns.com

Re SKB vs W&S 700.
Chopperlumps,I think you may have the cart before the horse
The 700 was around since the early 50's a developement of earlier A&D Actions used by Scott who adopted them after the patent on the original Anson & Deeley action expired @ 1890.
A W&S engraver told me that when they got an order for 2 sample
guns from a Japanese trading company in the '60's they expected good business to follow. Instead SKB copied much of the action , including the Webley screw grip seen on earlier A&D actioned Scotts . I believe the SKB 100,200 etc series was introduced for the US @ 1970. I will concede that the machining on the SKB was generally better than a 1970 era 700.
The tooling was pretty worn out by then!

True.

Seems to me that you are probably right! The Japanese have always been artisans --- so they may have copied the boxlock. At any rate the SKB guns and Mirokus of the seventies were the bargains of the century. A few years ago I saw a lovely 12 ga.
SKB with straight grip, splinter forend,swamped rib, lovely colored case hardening, marked "Royal". Was told it was made for the european market. Thanks for the input. Chops