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Apr 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 140
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 140 |
Win 21 John Olin,'97 John Browning,Mod 12 Thomas Crossley Johnson.Who get's credit for these two decent design's?Just wondering
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,041 Likes: 49
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,041 Likes: 49 |
Olin was a lot of things, but a designer he was not.
The 21 was designed by a staff of people.
Browning designed the '93, which morphed to the '97.
The 12 was a group effort at Winchester, the group nominally headed by Johnson. It uses the takedown feature of the '97, a Winchester addition to Browning's design.
There's nothing new or novel about the 101 or 23, just existing techniques adapted to high volume production guns. The real heros of those designs are the process engineers who made it possible to manufacture good quality at affordable prices. The starting point of course was Japanese labor cost.
"The price of good shotgunnery is constant practice" - Fred Kimble
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16 |
Although I haven't delved into the innards much on the 101, it resembles the superposed from the exterior. I beleive there were early versions of the101 that had the same forend iron design as the super.
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Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,983 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,983 Likes: 106 |
The patent for the Model 21 was given to T. C. Johnson, Winchester's chief gun designer in 1911 according to Schwing. Legend has it the number 21 was assigned to the gun because this was the age of Herb Orre who was a Winchester employee at the time. Chuck may be correct in terms of the 101. I wonder if Pauline Muerrle would know the answer to the 23 and 101 questions?? I bet she would.
Socialism is almost the worst.
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Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 13
Boxlock
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Boxlock
Joined: Apr 2011
Posts: 13 |
I spoke with one of the men who oversaw these projects, M101 and 23. He told me the following. "The M101 and M23 were both designed and manufactured by Olin Kodensha Japan. There was not a single individuals name associated with the design of either gun. It was the result of a group effort."
He also debunked the Herb Orre theory of the M21. He told me "The model numbers were either associated with the year of manufacture or tied to project numbers in the Design Dept."
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,384 Likes: 106
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,384 Likes: 106 |
Although I haven't delved into the innards much on the 101, it resembles the superposed from the exterior. I beleive there were early versions of the101 that had the same forend iron design as the super. Chuck, are you suggesting a forend that slid forward but remained on the barrels, like s Super? If so, I've never seen a 101 like that.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,205
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 3,205 |
Larry, no one else has either.
Ole Cowboy
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,880 Likes: 16 |
Larry, Don,
I thought that was the case with a friend's gun, a 3 bbl set. I must be mistaken.
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