doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Joseph Jakob, Philadelphia gunmaker...

Pete, good find.

Pete,

I have read that the Gun Quarter in Birmingham, England, was full of boys running here and there delivering parts between one maker's premises and another. I suspect that in A&D's time, Mean Time to Completion was a less pressing issue than it is now!

Nigel

Hi Daryl,

that is most interesting information! And yes, this answer my question quiet well. So you have roughly a dozen of original contracts between WR and some licensees?? Wow. How did you get them? I�d be most interested to see at least one of them.

Regards

Martin

Martin, I got the contracts, with other paper, at an auction. All very interesting. For example, the Osborn contract with WR requires the guns Osborn is building with WR patent [s] to be brought by in the white, fully functional with barrels fitted, but I think no stocks. WR would then inspect them and mark them with the patent and consecutive "Use Numbers" when approved. The contracts also contain a WR contract with Harrington and Richardson in the U.S. giving them exclusive rights to produce the A and D action in the U. S. If my memory is correct this covered about the first 5 years of the 1880s. By the way, the first contract with Anson and Deeley and Westley Richards, dated 1876 specified quarterly payments of 15 shillings per gun or rifle using the patent. Here's a picture of some of them.

Great information, Daryl. Not only as it relates to the firms mentioned, but the implications it holds for the trade as a whole.

Two small items; on the combination gun it looks like the rifle barrel is Damascus, while the shotgun barrel is fluid steel? Of the many I have seen, it is usually just the opposite.

Also, I asked Simon Clode specifically about the Lindner patent stamps and he relied that "all of the records from that time were lost in a fire" Might have been during the Blitz, can't remember.

C.

Clair, I think the left barrel is a Damascus shotgun barrel and the right a fluid steel rifle barrel. The picture of the two barrels with the Lindner mark may be confusing since it is taken on the bottom of the barrels. From that view the Damascus barrel is on the right, but is actually the left barrel [shotgun].

Hi Daryl,

thanks for showing a photo of the contracts. Wow! That�s really impressive.

Thanks for explaining the specific conditions of the license agreements. Would like to see the eyes of a potential licensee, if I�d dictate comparable conditions in a draft of a license agreement�.. well, with the A&D patent, Westley Richards was in a quiet comfortable position.

Thanks again!

Regards

Martin

Daryl,

As you know, I have been searching / asking for years about those "Use Numbers". Well this explains everything. If I understand correctly, each gun got it's own number. Making it impossible to track them back to the patent being used if it is not also marked on the gun. Fascinating system. The patent holder must have kept a master list that referenced each Use Number to a specific gun. A total lack of trust that was apparently common across the industry. If this was true in Britain, it may also have been true else. I wonder if this tells us something about all those Krupp barrels?

I am very glad you acquired those documents. A real learning experience.

Pete

I wouldn't doubt for a second that Krupp used the same, or a similar method along with many others. If so, it would seem to validate what we've been inferring about the Krupp steel tubes for a time.

I wonder if there was a satellite "Use Number" stamping sight for A&D in the Suhl area or were all shipped to Auguste Francotte, or some other agent, in Belgium?

Kind Regards,

Raimey
rse

Pete and Raimey, I have wondered about the possibility of a satellite Use Number Station, too. I guess Germany and Belgium were not too far for a Westley Richards rep. to travel, or for that matter, with the relatively good transportation networks back then, maybe guns shipped by rail and boat were easy to get to W R from the continent. We can read about John Dickson guns being regularly shipped to the Sumner engravers for engraving. Sometimes turn around , was less than a week. That was a round trip from Edinburg to London. Of course most proofing required shipping of guns to the two proofhouses in England from all parts of the island [s]. I sometimes forget the relative small size of the Continent and Britain, having lived in Alaska and Montana.

Another thought on the Patent Use Numbers is the marking we see on Dickson triggerplate guns. Always a patent use number. I cannot remember which patent it refers to or who may have owned the patent. Almost seems odd that Dickson would go to the trouble if they actually owned the patent.