doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Curios & Relics License

Not book making; my entire home is a gigantic meth lab.

HAH! No, nothing felonious going on here.But just as I mentioned one crazy Mass law rekated to firearms, it seems that others were passed in the last 15 years or so while I wasn't paying attention.

I've got loads of centerfire rounds, many different handgun calibres, from my reloadinig days. A shooting friend also had an FFL for awhile, and I took advantage of his discounts for somefirearms and rifle ammunition - case of .45/70 here, a case of .30/30 there. Also, thousands of .22 ammo. Lots of smokeless powder. This stuff was bought in the early 90's, and I never gave it a second thought.

I got into blackpowder the past 10 years. I've got maybe 20 lbs of it, along with other related stuff.

All of this apparently makes me a dangerous gun nut with a private aresenal in the eyes of the state.

I just don't want to deal with govt. scrutiny.

BATF has the power to inspect your books and applicable guns. From what I have read, the compliance inspections are primarily concerned with record keeping, and in certain cases determining if the 03 FFL holder is conducting business on the license (which is of course a big no-no). The agents typically want to make sure all pertinent information present, and on occasion may want to examine particular firearms to be sure they are being recorded properly.

This is just what I've read/been told. Like I said, I never got inspected.

If you get a license today do you have to list all the guns you previously purchased in your books? And what about selling any of the old guns, do you have to list them too?

I have two log books. One book for guns purchased before I got a C&R and then one for guns bought under C&R. I figured if there was any question that two books should satisfy the BATF. I am sure that most if not all the earlier guns could be confirmed with effort by the FFL who recorded that transaction but figured that it was simpler to keep good records of my own.

I have never heard any horror stories about C&R inspections. I have heard of people unwisely trying to use a C&R to do business for profit and pretend to be a hobby or collector. Worse for them were the sales taxes and income taxes that they had not paid and were required to pay with interest and penalities. Stupid people do stupid things.

My local leagal law enforcement officer has been a bit of a jerk about my C&R. He thought that he should have the right to inspect my collections, at his discretion and whim. I explained that he was welcome to inspect with proper paper work in hand, or he could just contact BATF and have them do it for them. That made him very cross. When he complaind to the mayor, his boss, he was told to either get a warrent if he had cause or quit bothering me. It might have helped that the Mayor my next door neighbor, had just visited me and seem most of my accumulation. That has been over two years ago and he has not bothered me since. I do make sure I drive the speed limit in town. Some people have sharp knives and longer memories.

The 03 bound book is for recording acquisition and disposition of firearms purchased with that license. I have receipts from shops or private sellers for all firearms transferred thru an 01FFL receiver or sold to me locally by a shop holding that license. I also have receipts for payment of transfer fee from my FFL receiver. I do not "bind" or otherwise duplicate this material except that I have a bag of fotocopies in 1) safe, 2) glove compartment, 3) originals in safe deposit box. If the BATF wants to see that material they will have to use their own magnifying glass. I have only four or five records of purchase in my bound book. I see no reason why the BATF would ask for a general audit of firearms acquired by legal transfer thru an 01 receiver as part of an 03 audit.

jack

You do not have to list C&R gun you purchased or sold before you got your license in your bound book.
However ANY C&R gun you acquire or dispose of (even if you did not use your C&R) must be entered in the bound book while licensed.

"Each licensed collector shall enter into a record each receipt and disposition of firearms curios and relics." [27CFR �478.125(f)]"
Note the regulation makes no mention of how the firearm is acquired or disposed of.


If you sell a gun you acquired before you got your license,you can write "acquired before C&R" in the acquisition section-and the FFL you send the gun to.

My only C&R conversations/exposure with the CLEO is to hand him a copy of my renewal application and telling him no action is required on his part just the he received the copy as required.

+1. I have had a C&R for the past 12 years.

If you live in a real person state, a C&R probably makes sense, but if you live a a phoney baloney state such as California, as I do, probably not. The C&R does not exempt you from any of the California interstate transfer requirements, i.e. 10 day wait restrictions, unless you get a Certificate of Eligibility, but it costs about $70 for a annual license while the C&R is $30 for 2 years. If you buy enough interstate than the Certificate makes sense. The good part is that you can buy on the gun auctions and have it sent to your home without the usual crapolla. That being said I have bought one gun using the C&R, it was a Lefever junker that I parted out (only gun on which I actually made any money).However, I was left with the quandary of disposing of the stripped receiver. I requested assistance from ATF and the destruction requirements were ominous. So I found a collector who would take it off my hands. My single log entry was a wash.

By the way, ATF sends you a heavy stock card log for use in lieu of a bound book.

I have renewed my license,but it is more of a novelty now.

It seems that there is a C&R thread about monthly on this forum. Sometimes they make me paranoid and I go check to make sure I remembered to enter everything properly. My only "crime" if audited, would be that I put everything in the book even if after 1898. Of course with the Lefevers I collect anybody can tell you that the relationship between serial number and date of manufacture is suspect.
However, could we actually get a poll of the number of C&R owners who have actually been audited by the BATF? I don't mean harrassement by the local LEO's that has been rightfully exposed as just that above. That is not the first of those stories I have heard. I am just wondering what my chances for an audit are. I would also assume the BATF doing a C&R audit could care less about the 870 under my bed.

Since the BATF has no record of what I buy using it I would also assume that any audit procedure would either be initiated by a random draw, or information from 001 dealers indicating you are buying a lot more than a normal collector would be buying.

I am sorry to hear that California has replaced Hawaii as the least gun friendly state. In Hawaii we have to personally register each and every (even C&R)gun at the police station. It takes me an hour to explain that a Barber and Lefever conversion from a muzzle loader may have two serial numbers, one the original and one placed by Lefever when converted. Yet somebody can walk in with a black gun that could be converted to a fully automatic weapon in 15 minutes with a nail file, and walk out within 5 minutes because they have seen hundreds of them.

"Since the BATF has no record of what I buy using it I would also assume that any audit procedure would either be initiated by a random draw, or information from 001 dealers indicating you are buying a lot more than a normal collector would be buying"

That used to be the case,however on the last 2 renewals they ask for number of acquisitions from C&R holders just like 01 FFL's.
I think that its more of a random draw thing as well.

To get a good poll on in person audits you might do better on a C&R board : (http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums.yuku.com/bparallaxscurioandrelicfirearmsforums )

I have heard of them doing it for C&R's but no real problems,especially if you can opt for the in office one.