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Mar 29th, 2024
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 638 Likes: 2 |
What would be the correct sort of bluing for pre 1900 British shotgun furniture, Nitre blue?
What sort of blue do they tend to use today?
And exactly what parts would normally be blued,both boxlock and sidelock guns?
Cheers,
GDU
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,879 Likes: 15
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 13,879 Likes: 15 |
There's probably a few others that know, but I'd shoot member "barrel browner" a PM or email over in the UK. It seems that some American guns of that era used Carbonia or Nitre blue.
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 138
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 138 |
The correct blue for pre 1900 should be charcoal blue, I can imagine that back in the day in the UK gun making centres, there would have been outfits that specialised in this and that's exactly what they did all day. In fact Malcom Cruxton of Price St., Birmingham once told me, as a young lad, he would often take furniture and barrels to the trade blackers in the gun quarter.
Here in the UK, most people in the modern gun trade that I know use the caustic hot blacking salts.
The only people I know who do charcoal blueing (which produces that beautiful deep gloss black colour) is St. Ledgers, of the colour hardening fame.
My old gaffer used to charcoal blue parts, with a small tray of charcoal, some tow (a fibreous material used for cleaning down stuff, looks like wool) and lime (natural powdered lime, the type farmers put on their land to change the acidity of soil). The part had to be polished, degreased and then placed over the hot coals. Periodically, the part was removed and rubbed down with the tow and lime and returned to the heat. After a while the black started and you eventually ended up with a charcoal blue part (usually the triggerguard, top-lever and safety catch and for a boxlock the floorplate too).
Last edited by Fletchedpair; 12/15/11 12:37 PM.
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Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,859
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 2,859 |
Fletchedpair,
Please excuse my ignorance, but what is "tow and lime" (with the emphasis on "tow".
Thanks,
Steve
Approach life like you do a yellow light - RUN IT! (Gail T.)
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,831 Likes: 13
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 2,831 Likes: 13 |
FP-
Wow - cool info.
To my eye, the bbls and the toplever, tiggerguard, bottom plate, etc, on original vintage Brit doubles have always looked like they had different finishes.
Thanks
OWD
Last edited by obsessed-with-doubles; 12/14/11 12:45 PM.
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Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,267 Likes: 519
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,267 Likes: 519 |
Parts that would've been blacked:
Top Lever
Floor plate (on some guns, others would've been case colored)
Trigger guard tang & screws
Some makers blacked forend escutcheons while other case colored them.
Safety button
Charcoal bluing is labor intensive (preperation, polish, etc) and offers no real advantage over hot bluing salts offered today. Makers who do blacking over here will tell you that the key to obtaining the right shade or "proper" shade of "black" is to change the salts often and the amount of polishing done to the metal. A local rifle maker, D'arcy Echols conducted a test on different types of blacking. He put small bits of blacked metal, all done in various ways (rust blued, charcoal, hot salt, nitre, etc) and tumbled them. The hot salt blacked finish proved to be much more durable than the others, so this is the finish he puts on his custom rifles, if anyone has seen a D'arcy Echols rifle, you know D'arcy knows wtf he's doing.
In regards to barrel blacking, I don't know where the myth that the proper finish for Brit gun barrels is a "satin, velvety black". I read that for years from various authors. I find that false. Most Brit barrels, especially higher grade guns have highly polished barrels & shiny black finish. Look at barrels finished by Johnsons for example.
I've had a few guns restored over the years and have had all types of finishes recreated. From now on, the small bits get hot blued, but I'm very picky on who I send these parts to to get the treatment. Blackers that change their salts often and know exactly the appropriate amount of polish to apply to the metal get my business. I've got names if you need them.
Dustin
Last edited by LeFusil; 12/14/11 01:34 PM.
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,526 Likes: 76
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,526 Likes: 76 |
DEpends on the maker and depends on the material. Greeners old barrel browner ,he always insisterd he was a browner not a blacker ,Ernie Pickthorn ,told me that he used to "rust black" a number of small parts both for double guns the GP guns .This was because of the use of castings that would not colour well or on which the colour faded to a plum colour quite quickly.On new guns the rule of thumb would be that all parts that were not colour hardened would be blacked . Some makers sent there guns out all blacked ,Cogswell and Harrison is a good example .
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Joined: Oct 2003
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Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 638 Likes: 2 |
That's great information thank guys.
Perhaps I will rethink the Nitre blue,it looks nice but I understand it does not hold up well.
If most UK gunsmiths are now using hot caustic bluing salts for furniture on old guns then I guess that's accepted practice.
When we say top lever,bottom plate etc I assume the associated screws with these are also blacked?
I will drop Barrel browner a line,thanks.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 3,642 Likes: 1 |
Hello Greg, This from my archives. Think its worth a try on some not very valuable "furniture": Oil&Ash(Charcoal)blueing
Trooper Lennox:Howdy; Read your question about charcoal blue. I'll give you a method that I have used for years. It's easy to use on triggerguards and backstraps, but more difficult to use on barrels, as you will understand after I've described it to you. I read about it in American Rifleman back in the 60's. It's the same method that Springfield Armory (the original Springfield Armory) used back in the late 1800'. The part that you want to blue is removed from the gun and degreased. Then you rub a very thin coating of boiled linseed oil on the surface of the part. Not thick or runny, but a nice even thin coat. The next step is to dust a coating of HARDWOOD ash over the entire surface. I keep a coffee can of ash from my fireplace in the shop for this purpose. You want to make sure that the ash is very, very fine, about like talcum powder. Anyway, dust the ash on. Hang the part on a piece of coathanger or heavy wire. Use a propane torch to slowly heat the part. You will be able to see the part change color from straw to purple to light blue to full blue. After it reaches full blue, it will get light again and then go through the colors again. When it reaches full blue the second time, remove the heat and let the part cool. Do NOT let the part get red. Dust off the part and apply some oil. Let it sit over night to let the blue harden. Blueing is an oxide and is a little fragile when it is new. If you have an old copy of Machinery"s Handbook, the process is similarly described there. It also lists the various colors associated with different temperatures. You want to keep the temp below the critical temperature where the steel is compromised. Anything below the red color is ok. Springfield armory used ovens to control the heat, but I didn't have one that went to the right temperature. Try the process on some scrap steel first to get the hang of it. Remember, the higher the polish, the better the blue. As I also said earlier, this is difficult to do on a barrel, because the frame acts as a heat sink and you will not get an even blue. This finish is very durable as is witnessed by the finish on any of the old trapdoor Springfields. Good luck.
Cheers,
JC
Last edited by JayCee; 12/14/11 04:55 PM.
"...it is always advisable to perceive clearly our ignorance."ť Charles Darwin
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,284
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 1,284 |
Pins are blue mostly, not black.  Black, blue, hmm...same? Never salt blacked barrels personally, it can detach the ribs due to melting the solder. I hot salts all of the furniture on the guns I do. T
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