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Joined: Dec 2005
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
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To all you great guys who have offered help on this gun, Thanks! I took Ron Overberg's advice and sent an email to Marilia Santos at Beretta. I sent her as complete a discription as I could and included some pictures of my gun. I don't know if this officially puts and end to this discussion but it is from someone who really knows these things and she works for Beretta. It does leave room for some more dicussion, though. For instance, my gun does not have the articulated trigger on it. I'm not sure what she was referring to about the safety. I asked her to explain the meaning of "an extractor of extensive developement". I have sent her my best response and asked a couple more questions of her. So far, I have not received any more emails from her. I have included her letter below just as she sent it to me. Bob
"Dear Mr. Hynden, The Security Division has informed that the shotgun is a side by side model 409 bis. It has been produced on July 1951 and sold in Italy on August 1951. This is a shotgun with two barrels hammerless - Monobloc - Beretta special triple locking - trigger Anson Deeley - light elegant engraving - receiver and barrel in Alloy Chromium eletric Steel - Special type Ausonia - rib type St. Etienne - safety on bottom - good class wooden. Note: the Beretta special triple locking "Patented" is with a longitudinally slide pin controlled by a lever; the system, called "top lever", works at the top of the receiver and it is particularly effective against the solicitations of rotation imparted to the barrel by explosive charge. This locking system allows the application of an extractor of extensive development. I hope it can help you.
Best regards
MARILIA SANTOS " Customer Service Firearms & Beretta Sport Division Fabbrica d'Armi PIETRO BERETTA S.p.A. Via Artigiani, 1 25063 Gardone Val Trompia, Brescia - ITALY Tel. +39 030 8341.369 - Fax. +39 030 8341.421
Last edited by Birdhunter56; 05/09/12 09:54 AM.
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Joined: Nov 2005
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 4,598 |
Dear Mr. Hynden, The Security Division has informed that the shotgun is a side by side model 409 bis. It has been produced on July 1951 and sold in Italy on August 1951.
That is a great response. They obviously have a factory record for this one. It appears that the features of the 409 BIS changed over time.
rib type St. Etienne Well, now we know how to refer to it.
Pete
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Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 52
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Aug 2011
Posts: 52 |
so much of documented Beretta history deals with pistols and over/unders, it would be great if we could entice one of the gun writers to more thoroughly document Beretta's history in side-by-sides. just a thought, Jim
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 88
Sidelock
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Sidelock
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Posts: 88 |
Jim, I agree with you, it seems like it should be past time for someone associated with Beretta to do a book on Beretta side by side shotguns. I got the small dent in the right barrel fixed but I have run into a problem with the action on this gun. Like so many of these Berettas, this one has a front acess plate screw that is stuck tight. It has been in the gun since 1951 and is really bound up. Beretta has always used very thin slots in their screws, I suppose to keep people from messing with them. It didn't work in the first place because I have seen numerous screws with messed up slots in them. All it really does is look neat and keep the screws from ever being removed!
I have so far tried two different penetrating oils. I put heat on it in the form of a large heated soldering iron thinking that by warming it up that the oil would get in there better and work. I used a specificly ground driver bit with a small ratchet in conjunction with the driver handle, it didn't budge. I tried a special oil that is supposed to partially freeze the screw and allow the oil to penetrate, No Luck! I don't know what to try next. I am down to just spraying some oil on it every morning in the hope that it will finally let go. Any of you guys have any ideas or special tricks to get these screws out. It has to come out so I can remove the stock and check out the safety. Thanks for your help. Bob
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372 Likes: 103
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,372 Likes: 103 |
rib type St. Etienne Well, now we know how to refer to it.
Pete
Pete, although that's probably as good a name as any for us to use--because it's seen far more often on French guns than those from any other country (very often on Darnes and Manufrance guns, both Robusts and Ideals), the French don't call it that. (Much as they don't use "French" in front of "fries" either. Some Gallic modesty, perhaps?) They refer to it as "plume"--literally, feather. I suppose we might call it a featherweight rib, but because of the connection of that rib design to French guns, St Etienne is at least as good a choice--and the Italians seem to like it.
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 88
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 88 |
Larry, I would cast my vote for featherweight as a name for this rib as it's primary function is to reduce the weight of the gun. If that's not satisfactory, I would then suggest that we call it a plume rib, at least it sounds neat! Bob
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 88
Sidelock
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OP
Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 88 |
I have an update for all you guys who helped me figure this out. I have decided that even though Marilia called it a 409Bis, I think maybe this is a 408. Because it is stamped 408 inside the forearm wood with the same stamps as the serial number of the gun found in the same place. She alludes to it being made for and sold in Italy. Since it differs so much from other Beretta 409's, I don't think it is a 409. I sucessfully raised the small dent in the barrels and finally got the screws loose to have a look inside the works. Thanks to the makers of Kroil, (soak it and let it have time to work.) It has no safety resetting bar linkage, and never did. The normal way these are put together is to use a pull bolt screwed into a spreader block, for lack of a better word. The block fits into grooves on the inside of the upper and lower tangs, being held in place with two machine screws. This gun does not have a pull bolt, no block, and no safety resetting mechanism. It has upper and lower machine screws that screw into the action. Because of the sling swivels and the light weight, I would say that to call it an Italian game gun would be just right. I have cleaned and fixed it and have put it on Gunbroker.com for sale. The auction number is 294333986 and it is listed as a Rare model 408. As far as I am concerned, that is what it is. I thank you all for your help. Bob
Last edited by Birdhunter56; 07/04/12 07:09 PM.
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Joined: Jul 2004
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Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2004
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The model I believe is a 408, a short lived model for European market. The tip off is the 3rd fastener that is a longitudinal rod into breach face. Bob
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 31
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jul 2004
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Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 88
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2005
Posts: 88 |
Bob, Thank you for adding the auction for4 me,I should have done that to begin with. Bob H.
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