doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com 30-35 yr old Chas Daly

I was shooting tonight with a colleague who has inherited an Italian Charles Daly 20 gauge SxS with an extractor. He is curious as to its worth, and I thought you guys might know. It is probably a 1970s vintage gun, in like new condition. It is hard to see that it has been shot at all.

The 28" barrels are stamped "Empire Grade" and it has a small amount of roll-stamped engraving, and a plain walnut pistol-grip stock with nice checkering. The forearm is a beavertail. A single, nonselective trigger.

It does seem to have a issue with firing however. It will sometimes fail to fire (~20% of the time), but when this happens, it has a strong click and the firing pin is completely unmarked. Pulling the stock off did not reveal any obvious things I had hoped to see like dried grease or obvious junk of some sort. So, that will be sorted.

the bottom of the left barrel is stamped C.A.M.75 15.8 ++ 2
the bottom of the right barrel is stamped KG 1.270 15.9 +++ 3
Can someone decode that for me? I'm particularly curious about the 15.8 ++ and the similar number and marking on the right barrel. I presume these are something to do with chokes.

Anyway, it seems to be a very nice gun, and he would like to have a ballpark estimate of what it is worth. I'm guessing it is in the neighorhood of $1K. It is not for sale.

Thanks,
Brent

I had an o/u Charles Daly 28 gauge from I believe the 70's/80's. I believe it was a Rizzini made gun. Nice gun for the money. I bought and sold it for around $1000.

With extractors, it's probably a Beretta, equivalent to the GR2 model. In great condition as a 20ga, it's probably a $1K gun, unless it has some unusually nice wood or a straight grip (not likely).

The +'s are indeed choke designations: mod/IM. 1.27 kg is the weight of the barrels. 75 indicates 3" chambers. 15.8 and 15.9 should be the choke diameters: .620 and .625. Working off the standard 20ga bore diameter of .615, that'd give you chokes of .005/.010, or significantly more open than the mod/IM indicated by the + marks. However, older Italian guns are often underbored, and if that gun has a bore diameter of more like .605 rather than .615, then mod/IM would be correct for the chokes.

The Italian Daly Empire Grades were indeed made by Beretta. You might even find their PB mark on the water table.

Thanks for all the comments. It does indeed seem to be very lightly choked. When I cleaned it last night I could barely feel anything out there.

Not sure where to recommend taking it for this misfiring problem. When I pulled the stock, everything looked just peachy. I can't really see how it could misfire w/o at least marking the primers, but it happens.

Larry, do you recommend anyone in the Ames - DSM region?

Brent,
Does it have mechanical or inertial triggers?
The mis-firing has been happening with what brand of ammo?
Thanks
Mike

The trigger (just one) is inertial. At least so far as I can tell. It has a weight that swings back to pick up the left barrel's transfer bar (might be the wrong terminology here). It is not a selective trigger either.

The ammo was a cheap box of Federal.

The issue arises on the first barrel (right barrel) after reloading. Care is taken to fully open the gun and cock the mechanism and then fully close the gun "briskly". There is a strong click when the trigger is pulled but 20% of the time, there is no firing pin strike. Not even a light scratch.

When it does go off, the firing pin dent looks just fine and normal.

This is well over my pay grade as I cannot even fathom how this could be possible when I look at the mechanism without the stock on it.

Does it do it with other brands of ammo?

Sometimes the Federal primers have a small bit more recess
the some other brands and the firing pin in your gun
may be a bit short or there is interference in the firing
pin recess or there is a weak hammer spring or it may just
be Thursday and the stars are not aligned

Can you procure other brands of ammo?

the bottom of the left barrel is stamped C.A.M.75 15.8 ++ 2
C.A.M. 75 is a chamber length of 75mm or in our terms
you can shoot 3 inch or shorter ammo in the gun
The ++ is the designation for a Modified choke

the bottom of the right barrel is stamped KG 1.270 15.9 +++ 3
The KG 1.270 is the barrel weight
The +++ is the designation for Improved Cylinder choke

Or some say here
http://www.hallowellco.com/choke_chart.htm

BUT REMEMBER, EACH GUN IS DIFFERENT AND SHOULD BE PATTEREND
WITH THE PARTICULAR AMMO TO BE USED

http://www.shotguns.se/html/italy.html

Here is one priced WAY too high
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=302405035

Here is one more in line
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.aspx?Item=302155033

Hope this answers some of your original questions

Mike

According to Lee Kennett, as well as the Wirnsberger book on proofs and a chart from Stan Baker, ++ or ** is improved modified; +++ or *** is modified. And I don't believe Italy was marking the pressure in bars or kg on their guns at that time. Rather, you'd have either a single star in a circle for standard proof; two stars in circle (over PSF, in both cases) for superior or reinforced proof.

Brent, I'll send you a pm for someone in that part of IA to look at your gun.

The KG is the barrel weight.
Best,
Ron