June
S M T W T F S
1 2 3 4 5
6 7 8 9 10 11 12
13 14 15 16 17 18 19
20 21 22 23 24 25 26
27 28 29 30
Who's Online Now
1 members (Olgrouser), 143 guests, and 2 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums10
Topics35,753
Posts503,062
Members14,044
Most Online462
Aug 5th, 2016
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707
Sidelock
**
OP Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 707
Was hoping to get some help from the experts on this side of the forum.

I purchased an old hammergun that was too unusual to pass up. I was hoping that some of you might have insights into what it actually is. Let me give you the facts as I see them:

1. Made for Army Navy Cooperative Society Limited
2. It appears that it was designed to shoot solids from the day it was made.
3. Trigger guard goes all the way down to a semi-pistol grip that is finished with a horn cap.
4. Gun has hammers that go to half cock
5. Gun has stalking safeties that appear original
6. Gun barrels are very heavy. All proof marks indicate 28 bore.
7. No indication the gun was converted from some prior Black Powder Express cartridge.
8. Gun has one flip up site and a front bead.
9. Right barrel roughly measures Cylinder
10. Left barrel roughly measures Improved Modified
11. Overall weight of the gun is 7 pounds, 7 ounces.
12. Stock and its horn butt plate appear original. 14-5/8" LOP.
13. No cheek rest is carved in the stock. Standard shotgun dimensions and shapes.
14. Forend uses the "Rigby style" lever fastening method.
15. Barrels are 28"
16. No case, tools or accesories were included
17. No sign of rifling or "paradox" style rifling exists. I don't believe any method of rifling, oval, ratchet or other ever was in the gun.
18. Nigel Brown's "British Gunmakers" volume 1 says that my serial number (IF it follows Army/Navy shotgun numbering system!) would be in the date range 1890-1896.

Pictures of the germane areas of the gun are here: https://moritz.homeserver.com/PhotoViewer/album634815994798731250/index.xml

Here is my theory, please adjust or debunk it as you see fit.

Because it was made for Army / Navy, I'm guessing that a British officer had this thing built as he was going abroad to India or Africa. I believe his intention was to use it for shot on birds and then to use the right barrel with ball and patch 28 bore shells for deer and other medium sized animals. The prior owner states that when he acquired it there were 28 bore shells loaded with either conical or cylindrical lead solids in the gun's case. The left bore has choke and is proofed with the stamp "choke" but the right barrel is not marked accordingly. The intention was to shoot solids in the right barrel only.

Has anyone heard of such a thing before? Anyone have any thoughts on my theory? Anyone have any idea what 2.5" shell was supposed to be used with what type of solid bullet? Please take a look at the joint Birmingham and London proof marks, what was the story there?

Thanks for any and all help you can provide!

Last edited by Rookhawk; 08/26/12 07:01 PM.
Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,341
Likes: 1
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Dec 2001
Posts: 3,341
Likes: 1
I belive the proofmarks will decipher the intended use but the photos are too small for me to see what they are. It could have been a cape gun, right barrel rifled and then smooth bored but it could have been made as you say. Proofs will tell.

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 3
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 3
I recall reading that some of the early big game hunters prefer to shoot solid slugs out of a smooth bore gun usually in the larger calibers . Could this be something similar . but for smaller game plus the advantage of shotgun use > Makes me wonder about a 410 I have in the shop at present that also has extremely heavy barrels . Your gun was almost certainly made for colonial use ,Africa or India so may have been envisaged as a general purpose shotgun /rifle .

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 3
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,469
Likes: 3
I recall reading that some of the early big game hunters prefer to shoot solid slugs out of a smooth bore gun usually in the larger calibers . Could this be something similar . but for smaller game plus the advantage of shotgun use > Makes me wonder about a 410 I have in the shop at present that also has extremely heavy barrels . Your gun was almost certainly made for colonial use ,Africa or India so may have been envisaged as a general purpose shotgun /rifle .

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 601
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Aug 2006
Posts: 601
Army Navy records are available from some University (I forgot nthe name). Easily obtained though.

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 969
Sidelock
***
Offline
Sidelock
***

Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 969
Yes, University of Glasgow has the Army and Navy records. Try:
http://www.gla.ac.uk/media/media_67061_en.pdf

Believe you are on track RH, noting that the 28 gauge rifle (.577) is a common black powder rifle bore. You may find that the rifling was polished out at some point...

Regards,
Tim

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 544
Sidelock
**
Offline
Sidelock
**

Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 544
From the reading I've done on firearms for the British and German colonial trade I believe you're on the right track, expecially with it being of British manufacture. I don't believe you will find the rifliing has been reamed or polished out. British Cape guns often had the smooth bore barrel and the rifle barrel regulated ot the same sight, for exactly the reason you suggest, one had a rifle for longer shots and the smoothbore loaded with ball or conical for in close, say from about 60 yards in, for critters with a less than amenable attitude. And, as has been stated, when not in the bush where unfriendly beasts make their abode you have a fine double gun for birds and small game.

A smoothbore with a round ball or conical can be very accurate up to about that range, 60 yards, and with a rear sight, nearly as accurate as a rifle with open sights. Best way to know for sure is to work up ammo and shoot it! (with black powder of course).

The 2 1/2 in. chamber was the standard for a looong time. Both shot loads, round balls and conicals were loaded in the 2 1/2 in. hull. Buffalo Arms carries brass hulls, the most likely fodder, for .410 through 12 ga., and I thought they used to stock 10 bore also. They're $24.28 for a box of 25 and will last a life time if shooting black. Here's the 28 ga. link.

http://www.buffaloarms.com/Shotgun_Reloading_Brass%20_it-161410.aspx?CAT=3832

I think you ought to but the old gal back to work!


NRA Benefactor 2008
NRA Patron 2007
NRA Endowment 1996
NRA Life 1988

Link Copied to Clipboard

doublegunshop.com home | Welcome | Sponsors & Advertisers | DoubleGun Rack | Doublegun Book Rack

Order or request info | Other Useful Information

Updated every minute of everyday!


Copyright (c) 1993 - 2021 doublegunshop.com. All rights reserved. doublegunshop.com - Bloomfield, NY 14469. USA These materials are provided by doublegunshop.com as a service to its customers and may be used for informational purposes only. doublegunshop.com assumes no responsibility for errors or omissions in these materials. THESE MATERIALS ARE PROVIDED "AS IS" WITHOUT WARRANTY OF ANY KIND, EITHER EXPRESS OR IMPLIED, INCLUDING BUT NOT LIMITED TO, THE IMPLIED WARRANTIES OF MERCHANT-ABILITY, FITNESS FOR A PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR NON-INFRINGEMENT. doublegunshop.com further does not warrant the accuracy or completeness of the information, text, graphics, links or other items contained within these materials. doublegunshop.com shall not be liable for any special, indirect, incidental, or consequential damages, including without limitation, lost revenues or lost profits, which may result from the use of these materials. doublegunshop.com may make changes to these materials, or to the products described therein, at any time without notice. doublegunshop.com makes no commitment to update the information contained herein. This is a public un-moderated forum participate at your own risk.

Note: The posting of Copyrighted material on this forum is prohibited without prior written consent of the Copyright holder. For specifics on Copyright Law and restrictions refer to: http://www.copyright.gov/laws/ - doublegunshop.com will not monitor nor will they be held liable for copyright violations presented on the BBS which is an open and un-moderated public forum.

Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.0.33-0+deb9u9 Page Time: 0.038s Queries: 28 (0.011s) Memory: 0.8277 MB (Peak: 1.8991 MB) Data Comp: Off Server Time: 2021-06-24 09:45:12 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS