doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Need Help with value and ID

Hi guys I need some help with this shotgun looking for a value for this gun as I am in the market to either sell or trade. The gun is a German SXS in 16 gauge. This is all I know about the gun, it is from Gustloff Werke Waffenwerk, formerly Simson & Co. In 1936, under the nazi regime they renamed BSW (Berlin Suhler Waffenwerk), later, in 1939 it was changed to Gustloff. This is all I know.

Well, it was made in September 1942 has 2 3/4 inch chambers and Krupp steel barrels.

It looks to be in excellent condition. I'm not well versed on the pricing of second hand German doubles but I'd guess that it's worth at least $1500.00

As I recall the 942 was when the gun was "proofed". Since 1942 was wartime I suppose it would be anybody's guess a to when it was actually built. May or may not have taken a while to get it through the proof house. Guns were I believe generally proofed in the white so would require finishing after proof.

Rick,

You have the story of the Simpson - BSW - Gustloff Werk down pretty well. This is what I can tell from the markings on your gun:

On the barrel flats:
* 16 in circle indicates the nominal gauge as 16 gauge.
* 70mm indicates that the gun is chambered for 70 mm length shells which in the US are known as 2 3/4 inch. This is uncommon on a German gun of this age as by far most were for 65 mm chambers. The 70 mm chambers makes your gun more desirable to American buyers.
* The eagle over N is called a waffenampt acceptance stamp and is a proofmark used during the Nazi era.
* The shield with a pick within is the mark of the Suhl proofhouse.
* 942 is the proof date-September 1942

On the water table:
* 51468-the serial number
* Waffenampt
* Shield with G within; Gustloff maker's stamp

On the barrels:
Fluss Stahl-Krupp Essen; The barrel steel was made at the Krupp steel works in Essen, Germany. Fluss Stahl= fluid steel. The basic level of Krupp barrel steel was Fluss Stahl-Krupp-Witten, Your barrel steel was the next level up. The next level up was marked with three interlocked rings. The best was Prima Kruppscher.

There are some more markings on the underside of the barrels that I can't make out from the pictures. Also to have an idea of the value I would have to see sharp close up pictures of the sides, bottom, and top of the action to evaluate the engraving, condition, and sear arangement as well as presence of cocking indicators.

Roger Bleile

I wouldn't call the essentialy civilian Eagle/N proof a "Waffenampt". Waffenamt was a German Army establishment and their eagles and codes were different, and acted as Army acceptance marks.

With kind regards,
Jani

Jani,

I stand corrected. The waffenampt would have numerals under the eagle not an N.

Also, Miller was posting at the same time as I was. He brings up a good point about the difference beetween proof date and completion date.

I have a 16/70mm gauge shotgun marked on the rib "A. Nothnagle - Made in Germany." Obviously made for export to an English speaking country. The gun was proofed in March 1943 at the Gustloff Werk. The explanation, according to Hendrik Fruehoff, is that such guns were proofed and left incomplete during the war. After the war Nothnagle somehow got the parts and completed them for ocupying GIs (before the Soviets moved in)thus the proof date does not match the completion date. This also explains the 70mm chambering on my gun and may point to the same explanation for Rick's gun.

Both of the BSW guns that I've had were chambered and marked for the "export" (70mm/2 3/4") shells. And both showed signs of having been exported or at least marked for export: one had the markings of a retailer/gunshop in Salonika, the other had a "Germany" marking. Both were choked tighter than a gnat's you-know-what in both barrels. Very Germanic. And they both had the famous "goose-stepping duck" on the bottom of the receivers.