doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Winchester Model 12 and 97 questions.

I've got the fever for an old Winchester pump shotgun but don't know a lot about them. Is there anything in particular I need to watch out for with either model? I'm kind of leaning towards the 97 but I don't know it's weak points. I'm looking for a shooter and not a collector piece. I basically have quit buying new guns and only look for classic models. Any thoughts?

Plenty of both of'em out there and with the depressed prices today, they're a good buy at $450 or $500 for a good 12ga gun. The hammer is the obvious difference; some like it some don't.

My preference'd be the Model 12 in a 16 or 20 ga. There's also a lot of the Browning copies around; a 10ga makes a good duck gun! Take your time and buy yourself a nice "prescious to prescious" present for Christmas...Geo

I have never seen a 10 ga M12 or M 97. I have owned both models, and think that the M12 is much the better choice for a using gun. The hammer on a 97 is not very prominent, and cold or wet hands can cause problems in cocking it. It is also not at all smooth operating, and is subject to wear more than the M12. The M97 bolt has to be slammed to the rear for ejection because of the design of the ejector, but in my case that was a help, as I shot a good bit of skeet with a 97, and since then have never had a problem with short stroking a pump gun. Also, there is a hazard to the 97 that I found the hard way. The rear of the bolt has two sharp corners that become sharper with wear, and if you get your hand too far forward on the wrist, the corners can gouge or cut your hand when pumping the gun. The 97 does seem a bit trimmer in the action than a M12 though.
The M12 was built in only 2 frame sizes, 12 and 20. The 20, 16 an 28 were all built on the 20 ga frame, while the 12 ga and 12 ga 3" gun were built on the larger frame. A lot of the 20 and 16 ga guns were made with short chambers before WWII. The 20 ga guns can usually be converted for the longer shells by just opening the chambers, but the 16s will require opening the ejection port also.

The Model 12 16- and 20-gauges got their chambers lengthened to 2 3/4 inch in 1926. For some reason the 16-gauge Model 97s didn't get their chambers lengthened until 1931.

I shot NSSA Skeet with a set of Model 12/42s for a number of years. I had this fantesy about the Model 1897/97 in that two of my favorite research subjects, Ansley H. Fox and Harold B. Money (De Shootinest Gent'man) shucked Model 1897s for the big W back in the early 20th Century. Also, there were some great pictures of Plinky Topperwein on the walls of the Spokane Gun Club from her visit there in 1911, when she ran a 99 with her Model 1897. Guess she had an off day!! At any rate, I finally got a high condition, very late, serial number over a million, Model 97. My first experience with the 97 was that it had to be pumped very precisely. Couldn't get away with any sloppiness that one can with a Model 12 or Remington Model 31. Then, at The Nimrod Classic at Polson, Montana, a friend was shooting his in the pumpgun event, and got his thumb a bit out of position and the breechbolt gashed his thumb to the bone. That was enough for me. The next gun I saw that I could trade the 97 on, it was gone. Having owned one does give me even greater respect for Ansley's 25 straight with his Model 1897 at the 1901 Grand American Handicap at live birds!!

I never owned or shot a Model 12. I do have a Model 97 12 gage in mint condition that I never shoot. My 37 Ithaca 16 gage beats the 97 hands down for smoothness when cycling the action.

I have a few Model 1912s and 12s in every gauge but 28 and one 16 Ga. 1897 - they are grand old guns, as are Remington 17s, 31s, Savage 21s & 28s, older Stevens, Ithacas etc.

They are all classics that won't be made again. My favorites are the Remington 17s & 31s.

Thanks for the replies. I'm not a cowboy action shooter or anything like that I just like to hunt and shoot clays with old guns. Something about using a gun that has several lifetimes of use and several more left in it just appeals to me. I'm only interested in 12 gauge. Do I need to watch for short chambers? It's my understanding that all M12's were 2 3/4 but that the early 97's could be almost anything.

You don't need to worry about short chambers in 12 Gauge 1912s & 1897s.

There is nothing like hunting and shooting with old guns.

J.A.R. Elliott used a Greener in the 1895 GAH, then shot for Winchester with an 1893 Repeater using "Leader" shells loaded with "EC" powder, then Hazard "Blue Ribbon" when he defeated Fred Gilbert to take back the Kansas City "Star" Cup April, 1898. He then retained the cup first beating R. O. Heikes by the score of 94 to 93/100, then C. W. Budd, J.E. Riley, and Fred Gilbert in Kansas City. In March 1899, he had the High Average at the Sportsmen's Association Championship Tournament held on the roof of the Madison Square Garden breaking 1223 out of 1300 targets and held the following trophies in 1899: DuPont Trophy, St. Louis Republic Cup, & Cast Iron Medal (all at Live Birds) and the "E.C." Target Championship Cup & "Republic" Inanimate Target Cup. He finished 1900 holding the Cast Iron Medal, Sportsmen's Review Cup, and the St. Louis Republic Cup then in January 1901 won back the DuPont Trophy. He later used a Model 97 Pigeon Grade.



He used his 97' in the 1901 Anglo-American match, then went went on to Belgium and joined R.A. Welch competing in a series of pigeon matches, winning 1000 francs in one match. The purse in Namur was $40,000!!
http://www.la84foundation.org/SportsLibrary/SportingLife/1901/VOL_37_NO_22/SL3722022.pdf

https://docs.google.com/document/pub?id=185YOyQl7GIB9OYLs9Hr3tnMLHqs4rjEdR4j_E9l4HLw

I was loaned a model '97 in a duck blind on Sweck lake, near Coldspring, MN when I was about 15. The freezing rain/snow mix was coming in sideways to the point I couldn't keep my glasses free enough to shoot anyway, and I should have stuck with my single shot 12. I shot at and missed a stupid duck of some sort, and when I went to pump the old Winchester, I gashed myself right down to the bone on my left thumb. I likely would have bled to death, save the fact my hands were already frostbitten and that slowed the bleeding. I'll have the scar to my dying day.
I was told I was the only one dumb enough to ever do that, but, my experience isn't unique, it would seem.
I'm a big fan of hammerless guns these days.

Best,
Ted