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#27291 02/22/07 11:49 AM
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Have y'all been following the recent attacks on Jim Zumbo following his postings concerning the AR-15?

I've found it interesting that every other hunting or shooting forum I post on has had responses to Zumbo's statements.

Here a link to one:

http://www.refugeforums.com/refuge/showthread.php?t=513756

For a board that is concerned with those guns least likely to be targeted by anti-gun organizations, what are your opinions on the restriction of semi-automatic, plastic rifles and shotguns?

Todd


Youth is stolen by Wisdom.
Ozpa #27295 02/22/07 12:33 PM
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Todd:

Ill address more later, I dont have time to create a well-crafted thoughtful essay. Right now I am writing a technical report for a client, and therefore must be brief here.

Suffice it to say - They will come get the Purdeys and Elsies after they have sucessfully gotten the AR's, the plastic shotguns, and black rifles. And the "battle" rifles such as Mauser 98's, Enfields of various Marks, and 1903 Springfields- after all those rifles were created only as battlefield killing machines... and oh my they shoot POWERFUL cartridges capable of killing more than a mile away and penetrating body armor to boot.

The point is , a gun banner can ALWAYS come up with a reason why YOUR particular arm is a threat to the public safety. The reason is, ultimately, some people DO NOT like firearms, and believe that having deadly force in private hands is a bad thing. Of course, this flies in the face of practical experience as well as Anglo-Saxon civic culture going back to Magna Charta, but , what the hey, the modern elites who want to create a safe and perfect world, where only the state has power, dont pay much attention to that sort of thing.

The claims that this is to reduce crime is specious, and it is tedious to the extreme to keep having to address it. Gun Control is NOT about crime, as it has never been demonstrated to work, anywhere. My guns , for instance, do not contribute to the crime rate. Why? Because I am not a criminal, therefore, whether I have black rifle or a bazooka, it totally doesnt matter to the crime rate. So- arms in the hands of non-criminals are a non-issue. And criminals will always have guns. Always. Do you think a rapist who is staring at 20 years to life, or a drug dealer who regularly kills his competitors, will be dissuaded by another gun law? Nope, I didnt think so. The only reason the "Restrict them Ban them" cabal makes these ridiculous and unsupportable "crime control" claims, is that there is out there in the general public, a lot of people who think like sheep and cannot reason logically. Or perhaps they are just uncomfortable with the idea that their neighbor is armed. Since they are unwilling to protect themselves, they feel everyone should be in the samje boat - they prefer all sheep be toothless. I would suggest that THAT is a significant and crippling neurotic condition best addressed by professional help, but I am not licensed to practice psychology or psychiatry, so I will remain silent on that one.

The folks who dont like firearms dont care whether or not the arm in question is a two shooter or a muzzleloader or a black rifle. For example, several years ago, there was a serious legislative move in Ohio to ban the US 1863 Rifle-Musket as an "assault weapon". It was a military arm, and mounted a bayonet. It didnt succeed, but folks, that is a stark example. This is NOT about crime, its about CONTROL. In order to be logically consistent, these folks must have them all, someday. Your Purdey and your Elsie are no different. It is just easier, right now, to attack .50 Caliber rifles, black guns, sidearms.

Like most Fabians, these folks are very very patient. They figure accomodationists like Zumbo will roll over and give them, piece by piece, in the name of compromise, everything they want. Oddly enough, though, the reasonable compromise only ratchets one direction- toward more and more and more restrictions.
The accomodationists say "We will give you black rifles, plastic pistols, 11 shot auto-pistols ( here insert a gun the accomodationst doesnt really care for) , if you promise to leave my double barrel, classic Colt SAA, muzzle-loader ( here insert the accomodationists favorite hobby or using gun) alone."

The Feinsteins and Schumers of the world say "Yess indeed. we will agree to that." The bill is passed, horns blow, we are all safer and crime plummets 30% as those evil guns are destroyed. But that isnt what happens. Nothing happens except for some types of guns are now proscribed. And then, next session, Feinstein, Schumer, Kennedy and the anti-liberty lobby are back again. Wanting more. More. More. Always.

Lastly, the Second Amendment describes a "Right" , not a privilege based on someones "discretion". As soon as a "Right" becomes "discretionary, it's no longer a "right", but a privilege. And privileges last only as long as the King thinks we should have them.

By golly- I could'a SWORE that the first Ten Amendments were called the "Bill of Rights"... not the "Bill of Privileges".

I call attention to my signature line, and close for now.

Regards

GKT

Last edited by Greg Tag; 02/22/07 12:47 PM.

Texas Declaration of Independence 1836 -The Indictment against the dictatorship, Para.16:"It has demanded us to deliver up our arms, which are essential to our defence, the rightful property of freemen, and formidable only to tyrannical governments."
Ozpa #27298 02/22/07 12:42 PM
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Zumbo's self immolation was certainly amazing. He's done. The shooting industry is running from him like a ticking time bomb.

The state of affairs of our sport in many other countries clearly shows where attitudes like Zumbo's invariably lead. I've never owned a semi-auto rifle or shotgun - just never been my cup of tea. However, we can't be selective about guarding our rights. If we don't present a united front, we're done.


"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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Originally Posted By: Greg Tag

Lastly, the Second Amendment describes a "Right" , not a privilege based on someones "discretion". As soon as a "Right" becomes "discretionary, it's no longer a "right", but a privilege.


...and as soon as it becomes a privilege, it's gone.


"Serious rifles have two barrels, everything else just burns gunpowder."
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There's site that has his appology. http://xavierthoughts.blogspot.com/2007/02/jim-zumbo-apologizes.html

Worth a read if you took the time to read his condemnation of the AR. The guy sounds sincere. I'll give him another chance to stand with the pro-gun crowd. No sense making another enemy. Better to make a closer, more reliable friend of Zumbo. Didn't you ever change your opinion on something of importance?

Last edited by Chuck H; 02/22/07 01:38 PM.
Chuck H #27308 02/22/07 01:42 PM
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This site has both, his original blog and his recant.
http://www.huntingsense.com/the-jim-zumbo-controversy/

Chuck H #27314 02/22/07 02:26 PM
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I will surely anger many of you with my comments, but I find myself agreeing with most of Jim Zumbo's orginal statements.The assualt-type weapons look to me like they are designed to spew a lot of ammo at a target. I believe this is consistent with their original purpose as a military firearm. I have a hard time embracing this kind of weapon as a sporting arm. Please follow my thinking on this. I am not saying these guns should be outlawed, but I cannot understand a good sporting use for these guns. The kind of firepower they represent goes against the grain of my sporting upbringing.

I think the public views these guns as weapons designed to put a lot of lead on to a target. They associate these guns with the assault-type purposes that they were designed for. It is no accident that these guns are referred to as "assault weapons." My point is that by embracing this kind of firepower as a sporting arm, we may be cutting off our own noses in spite of ourselves. People running around in the woods dressed like Rambo and toting assualt weapons does not endear hunting to the general public and can easily contribute to just more land being locked away from hunters forever.

I believe that we have to remember that we need to be good ambassadors for our sport. Associating hunting with this kind of weapon will not help the sport of hunting.

Many of you will strongly disagree with me, but I hope you won't feel the urge to attack me as a decent person because I believe differently than you. I am still a hunter and a lover of our sport. I just think that these weapons do not serve our sport well. I had more respect for Jim Zumbo with his original position. I kind of feel his retraction looked like a "cave in" and I had a hard time following his reasoning for reversing his first statement. Being tired just seemed a little weak to me and not much of a support for his reversal.

Ed Pirie
West Topsham, Vermont

Ozpa #27315 02/22/07 02:31 PM
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Simularly to Jim Zumbo I have hunted for years(on a smaller scale) and have for that time only used "sporting" guns. Unlike Jim Zumbo I have no national audience and since few if any pay any attention to me I doubt if I were to get one I'd have it much longer than 15 minutes. I have never shot an AR15 or an AK, but If someone owns one and uses it legally, morally and with courtesy I have little problem with it. I might grumble, but as I've said my audience is small and educated. Jim Zumbo should be similarly aware of his audience. Perhaps this incident will make him more aware, that his hat band has become to tight and his hot air valve is clogged. Other wise I think he'll be just fine.

Kurt

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Originally Posted By: Greg Tag


Ill address more later, I dont have time to create a well-crafted thoughtful essay. Right now I am writing a technical report for a client, and therefore must be brief here.


Greg:

If that is just your hasty scribblings, I cannot wait to see what a well crafted essay will be. I have never seen my personal position more accurately or eloquently stated. Thank you.


As far as Mr. Zumbo, I cannot believe a man who's living is apparently dependant on the gun industry would make such a statement, even if he does believe it. It is career suicide.

His sponsors are running for cover, dropping him like the proverbial hot potato. One of his TV show sponsors has withdrawn their sponsorship with a statement apologizing to the public for ever supporting Mr. Zumbo. I suspect when it all shakes out the only job in the firearms industry available to Mr. Zumbo will be working for Sara Brady.

Speaking of which, has not anyone noticed that Mr. Brady took a bullet for the President of the United States of America? The man is a national hero, and his loving wife is making a living by parading him around like a circus freak.

Sorry. I'll be good now...

Glenn



There is no sacrifice too great for someone else to make.
#27317 02/22/07 02:47 PM
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"First they came for the Jews and it was not me, then they came for the gypsies and it was not me, then they came for ....." I purchased "assault rifles" in the late '80's when "they" started the black gun garbage because it is my RIGHT. I hardly ever shoot them-too busy with my "Sweet Elsies"- BUT I own them and several battle paks of mil spec ammo. One never knows when a "Katrina" will strike this part of the NC coast. While I hope we never have New Orleans style problems only a fool trust the folks in DC to do the right things.(Don't think so ask the Native Americans!) Besides I am responsible for my safety and that of my family. Jim Zumbo is entitled to his opinion, even if he is off base. Best, Dr. BILL

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