doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Trying to date a Midland Gun Co. SxS

Gents,

Here is a gun I recently purchased. It's the one I was asking how to measure the chamber, as I suspect it may have 2 1/2" vice 2 3/4" chamber. In looking at the gun, there are some markings for which I cannot determine their meaning. I'm trying to date the gun and gather any more info I can. Currently, I believe the gun to be built between 1905 and 1925. Here are the specs and pictures:

Make: Midland Gun Co.
Action: BLE
Bore: 12
Barrel Length: 30"
Gun Length: 47"
Serial #: 69501
Purchased in Tokyo, Japan















The marks I'm having trouble with are on the barrel flats. On the far left is a 13 over a 1. It may be a 15 over 1 but I think it's 13 over 1. What does this mean?

The diamond with a 12 over C. I understand this is for 12 bore, but what is the C and when was this stamp used? (before 1925 I think?).

Last is the "1 1/8" mark on the far right. What does this stamp mean?

Any thoughts on the date and possible model and level of gun this is ?

Thanks for all of the help.

Patrick, I am happy to say that I now understand your question. Reading the "Subject," I was preparing a lecture on the evils of emotional relationships with inantimate objects.

OK, now for serious.

The marks I'm having trouble with are on the barrel flats. On the far left is a 13 over a 1. It may be a 15 over 1 but I think it's 13 over 1. What does this mean?

It is most likely 13/1 which translates to a bore of more than 0.719 and less than 0.730 at proof (allowances made for my remembery - which ain't what it used to be). ).730 to 0.740 would have been stamped "12". The 13/1 is a fairly common gauge and positively nothing to worry about.

The diamond with a 12 over C. I understand this is for 12 bore, but what is the C and when was this stamp used? (before 1925 I think?).

Actually, it refers specifically to a 12 gauge (see above for 12 bore) chamber of 2 1/2" or 2 3/4" chamber length - 2" chamber guns are so marked and a diamond 12/L was used for 3" and longer.

Last is the "1 1/8" mark on the far right. What does this stamp mean?

It indicates a maximum load of 1 1/8 oz shot and implies the level of proof pressure and intention for service loads. 1 1/8 loads are usually associated with 2 1/2" chambers and shell length where as 1 1/4 oz was generally for 2 3/4" chamber guns. Not invariably, but usually.

Any thoughts on the date and possible model and level of gun this is ?

Date I'm not sure of - someone else will fill us in I imagine. The gun itself would be a upper middle-of-the-pack boxlock ejector. Midland made guns of Original Quality grade from "best work with extra finish" to colonial-farmer grade. They were all sound and did the intended job; you got the grade you were willing to pay for. The Midland name commands Brand Value level three (BV3 in my shorthand). The Original Quality grade is six (OQ6) and Current Condition level looks to be about four (heavy use, but no abuse). So, BV3-OQ6-CC4 = $1766 for the USA mid-retail market for normal Brit-Continental 12 bore SXS guns of 1890ish to 1960ish manufacture. BTW, this is not a "price", but an idea of where the price (agreement between a willing buyer and a willing seller) might fall. Of course, this assumes it workes well and the photos are a true representation.

Hope this helps.

DDA

Rocketman,

Thanks for the great info and education. I've been following your pricing formula in many of the threads - it's a great tool, although I'm still a bit too dim to really grasp how to use it. When you explain it, it makes great since; when I try to use it myself, I look like Homer Simpson.

As far as an emothial relationship with inanimate objects, I venture to say most of us have several double barrel mistresses with whom we're overly enamured - and looking for more!

Patrick, you are right - clearly we are gluttons for punishment! Fortunately, there are no mores against polygimial shotgun ownership. I disavow any responsibility for the spelling or ideas others may draw from the foregoing!!

PM me if you want to delve deeper into my valuation system. It does take some work to be done accurately, but much less than is needed to value guns intuitively. Most of us haven't the opportunity to handle enough guns to develop the intuition.

DDA

Patrick,
I have a scanned Midland 1936 catalog in pdf. I can email it to you. Please PM me an email address.
I have Midland catalogs going back to 1914. There are not a lot of changes in the gun line between 1914-1936.

Your gun appears to be the "Perfection" Hammerless Gun on page 22 of the catalog. Gun Model was 8683. 18 gbp non-ejector, 22gbp with ejectors. It's a dead ringer right down to the engraving pattern and tear-drop.

Joe

Patrick,
I have scanned and uploaded the 1935 midland catalogue to photobucket. You can press ctrl and click on the link or you copy and past this link into your browser - it should link to it � let me know if it doesn�t.
http://s1069.beta.photobucket.com/user/o...439177495405381
I had a quick look but couldn�t see your gun.
It is amazing to see that in 1935 there was a choice of several muzzle loading percussion guns on offer. Loads of hammer guns and mauser broom handles � how times have changed?
There were some great names including, The Demon, Quicksure, Pioneer, Defiance, Climax, dreadnought, Knockabout and best of all �The Sudden death�.

As far as the proof marks go � according to one of the books I have the 13 over a 1 was used between 1896 and 1904.
The diamond with a 12 over c was used between1896 and 1954.
The crown over BP, BV and NP was used from 1904 till 1954 combined with Nitro Proof.
So according to my book it is a bit of an anomaly.
The 13 over 1 dates it to 1896 � 1904 but the other marks suggest 1904 to 1954.
Not much help I�m afraid.
Maybe someone else has a more detailed proof mark analysis.

Nice gun by the way.
John

I hope someone can or will back this up but I was told a while back that confusing proof marks on barrels can often be put down to barrel makers having stocks of tubes on their shelves that may have been proofed in the white and marked with a certain set of marks, then, when they were fitted to an action and made into a gun, they were submitted for final proof at a later date and the marking method had changed.
I'm not sure if it's always the case, may have been for trade guns, I don't know if Midland made their own barrels, or whether outworkers either at Demon works or elsewhere in the trade made them.
I may be completely wrong here, I'm getting more doubtful as I write, but even so, I'd guess that unless a gun had been for re-proof, the latest marks would be the ones to go from.

Patrick, I answered your previous post about the gun before I saw this post. Joe is correct in that it is the 'Perfection' model. It was also made as a non-ejector.

Finding its way to Japan is interesting and I suppose it has a few tales to tell. I can recall being shown an old hammer gun some years back that had been 'liberated' by the Japanese during the war from a British plantation owner when he was interned over in the far east. He somehow got the gun back after the war and it still had all the Japanese writing painted on the stock. I fail to remember how he was re-untited with it sad to say. Lagopus.....

There was some export of Brit guns to Japan. An Edwardian era shooting book backed up by Westley Richards claims that WR built a pair of their best droplocks for the Prince of Japan. It mentions unusual bird gold inlays on the guns made by design that came directly from the Prince, who apparently sent pictures of what he wanted on the gun. It would look like, while shooting birds doesn't seem a very Japanese thing to do, it was practiced at least by some of the nobility. And some market hunters, probably, all those pre-WW2 Japanese shotguns that surface now and then at American gun boards had to be used by someone. Last but not least, there were numerous diplomats, businesspeople, and qualified engineers, doctors, scientists, etc. whom Japanese invited to help Europeanize their industries and country - some of them could have brought hunting weapons along.

Incredible! I have almost the same gun, #56,464 which is a number 2 of supposedly a matched pair, however it has some very minor and sparse line engraving, with "Midland Gun Co."in a banner, which was not very extensive. The gun has a hidden third fastener without a slot in the action top, but a recess for the fastener below the top of the action, which I could not make out on the guns shown on Old Farmers catalog. However, interestingly this gun has a gold initial oval engraved with a rampant Lion which appears it was reserved for sitting Scots royalty. Same proofs 13/1, 30" barrels, bored .44 left and .07 right. Only a frugal scotsman, and a royal to boot, would have a matched pair of Birmingham box locks. A knowledgeable friend has told me that there are more #2 guns made than #1 guns, so that a shooter could appear at the grouse butts and tell the shoot master that his #1 gun was in the shop so he could only shoot his #2 gun and therefore would not require (or pay for) a loader. When I bought the gun a few years back, the seller referred to it as a "Harding" with a build date of 1938. As the seller had bought the gun at auction I assume that this was "puff" from the auctioneer. I had a problem with the triggers as they were tightly radius-ed "C" shapes and hurt my fingers especially when I fired the rear barrel. I had a smith heat and bend the triggers into a more user friendly and traditional shape. Please tell us more about these Midland guns. Thank you, Mike Cross