doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Webley and Scott

It IS a screw grip, but not all Webley screw grips are A & W Models. The "Proprietary" Hammerless Model shown in the photos above uses a straight extension. The A & W used a spade shaped doll's head extension and, in the better grades, intercepting sears. Also I THINK the A & W shotgun actions had a slightly longer action bar than the non-A & W models did, but I'm not certain (I've researched the Webley doubles for years, but I'm a double rifle guy). That was the case with Webley's screw grip double rifle actions for sure.

I'm not savvy enough to post links, but if you want to see what an A & W C ("C" is for Cordite. This is the double rifle action but it will serve for illustration purposes) looks like, go over to the Double Rifle Forum at accuratereloading.com to the thread "Another Newbie Question" posted by 375 hnh and click on the link to the Army & Navy .470. This is an A & W C 2nd.

The dolls head of the A & W shotty action was very slightly different in shape. If you want to see what it looks like, there is a William Evans SLE for sale at champlinarms.com in the New and Featured Gun List. This is a Webley W & R model that uses the same dolls head as the A & W.

Don't be confused by "Army & Navy" and "William Evans". These are Webley built guns, with Webley serial numbers on them, retailed by other gunmakers.

In the case of Wm.Evans, maybe Webley's raw stock.
Its all in the fit and finish anyway, and there's the rub.
How stupid these men were to pay 5 to 10 times the going rate of the Webley for a Wm.Evans!

Dustin, you need to get a copy of Webley & Scott's 1922 catalogue. Reprints were done some years ago and are still available around the web. Your EXACT gun is illustrated at the top of page 7, '"Proprietary" Hammerless Ejector Guns'. Same model gun, same carved oak leaf fences, same treatment of the fore-end wood, same engraving pattern on action body, etc. The only differences between the illustrated gun and the photos of yours are that the engraving wedge on the barrels is a little smaller in the catalogue, and the makers name is in an oval in the center of the action bar instead of across the top of the bar. Otherwise, your gun is absolutely identical. The illustration is of "Grade 1". There is no doubt about the Model and grade.



Brown shows 1923 for that number. Also, your proof marks don't show case length, which became a required mark under the new rules of 1925, so the 1923 date is more likely to be correct than 1927.

400 NE, I agree with you on the dating of Dustin's gun. Does your catalog specify that that particular gun is a screwgrip? I have a couple photos of screwgrips, and both have the word "patent" around the screw through the top lever--and they both also have a small screw set into the rear of the large, spindle screw. Without being able to see whether the spindle on Dustin's gun is threaded, (Dustin, you should be able to see the threads in the slot in the standing breech), from the photos at least, it looks as if it could be just a standard Scott spindle with a 3rd bite. Looking down on the receiver from the top, the top levers on my Army & Navy pair (made by Scott in 1933) don't look any different than on this gun. But mine have Greener crossbolts, definitely not screwgrip guns.

I have been looking at a Webley & Scott from the same era, albeit a lower grade gun. The one I have been looking at has a straight extension, not a doll's head, but it does not look like the one above. It has an angled notch cut into the extension, rather than the "shelf?" in the one above. This gun does have a locking screw set into the main top lever screw, but I cannot see any screw threads in the spindle. Are all of these guns screw grips? Were there different versions of the screw grip action? I have heard reference to Model 400s and 500s.

Yes, it does. Like I said, I don't pay nearly as much attention to the shotguns, and I haven't handled that model in a while, but I don't recall it having visible machine threads on the spindle. The catalogue describes it as a screw grip.



While I have no wish whatsoever to start an endless controversy here, your above para pretty much outlines the crux of a very popular misconception about these. The term "screw-grip" is commonly used today as a nick-name for some screw grip models that have machine threads on the spindle that are visible through the standing breech. That definition is a modern invention, and one that I can find no evidence that Webley ever used.

In doublegun nomenclature, a "screw grip" is a fastening system used in three different ways. The first was Henry Jones's screw grip from 1859, which fastens the barrels to the action via a T shaped screw head which engages angled slots in the underlug. Turning the underlever tightens the "screw". Wilkinson Sword's Screw Grip Fore-end Fastener of 1866 (the side-swinging lever type seen on the Army & Navy rifle above) is a direct crib on the Henry. The lever bears against an angled cut on the loop, "screwing" the fore-end iron tightly into place as it turns. Webley & Brain's 1882 Screw-Grip Top Fastener works in exactly the same way - an angled extension on the spindle engages a matching cut on the rib extension and turning the toplever "screws" the barrels down tightly. The term "screw grip" is a description of how the fastening system works, not of a specific characteristic of a few models of the type.



After the merger in 1897, the P. Webley and W & C Scott lines remained more or less separate, even in the catalogues, until the Scott line was dropped in 1935. The screw grips were Webley models and the crossbolt guns were specific Scott models.

Webley made 7 versions that I'm aware of.

No, it isn't, and there's the rub.

Webley never numbered their actions. When they assigned a number to a gun they built for the trade, the number was stamped on the barrels, not on the action. This Evans is a readily identifiable Webley model and their number is on the barrels. In other words, it left Webley as a proven barreled action in the white, at a minimum. However, research into these Webley trade guns in recent years indicates that this was rarely done, and that most left Webley complete.

William Evans was largely a retailer back then, and famously retailed a LOT of Webley guns. Few in the trade believe that Evans was stocking and finishing the guns they were buying in from the trade in those days. I've had doubles like this from Evans, Holland, Rigby, etc., right next to guns of the same model that Webley built for no-name retailers that were absolutely identical - sometimes right down to the exact same engraving. No difference in quality of finish whatsoever. I see this regularly, because I'm taking notes on the guns, and writing down both serial numbers for my research.

According to the Evans records, this gun was built in 1929. According to the Webley & Scott serial number table that Nigel Brown published, the Webley number on the loop is also from 1929. Imagine that.

As a comparison between highest and lowest, here are two pictures of my grade 3 (lowest grade) "Proprietary"-gun, made by W&S for Army & Navy C.S.L. Sold 1921.





And a link to a Webley & Scott 1914 catalogue in pdf. Click on the link on the top of the page.

http://huntershouse.dk/index.php?kat=191

First-off, I cast a weary eye to the men, who go after the London trade with such intensity.
Boxlock, or best gun - are we on the same page?
We know that the most famous Birmingham maker of all, Westley Richards, had what few best Sle guns made for them by AA Brown.
So, the most famous of all, could not complete their best Sle gun.
It is also known that raw stock from B'ham was finished in London for their guns. Now, as to complete guns?
Maybe their 2nd and 3rd quality came whole from B'ham without the London craftsmen touching them.
I think your selling the men who knew best guns, shot the estates and had the money somewhat short.