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FOX CHAMBERS --

The only two A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogues, that I have seen, that state chamber lengths are the 1913 and 1914. From the 1914 A.H. Fox Gun Co. catalogue --



They both state 12-gauge guns are regularly chambered for 2 3/4 - inch shells, 16-gauge 2 9/16 � inch shells and 20-gauge 2 1/2 - inch shells. That being said, virtually every 12-gauge Ansley H. Fox gun made in Philadelphia (other than the HE-Grade Super-Fox) that I've run a chamber gauge in shows about 2 5/8 - inch. The chambers of unmolested 16-gauge guns seem to run about 2 7/16 inch and 20-gauge guns a hair over 2 3/8 inch. A very few graded guns were ordered with longer chambers. Savage began stating chambered for 2 � inch shells in their 1938 Fox catalogues.

All this being said there is a good body of evidence that back in those days chambers were held about 1/8 inch shorter than the shells for which they were intended. In the two-volume set The Parker Story the Remington vintage specification sheets on pages 164 to 169 call for a chamber 1/8-inch shorter than the shell for which it is intended. Also in the 1930's there were a couple of articles in The American Rifleman (July 1936 and March 1938) on the virtue of short chambers. Sherman Bell�s articles in The Double Gun Journal covered his tests showing no significant increase in pressure from shooting shells in slightly short chambers. IMHO I don't much sweat that 1/8-inch in 12-gauge guns. On the other hand when one gets a 20-gauge chambered at 2 3/8-inch likely intended for 2 1/2-inch shells I do worry about folks firing 2 3/4-inch shells in such guns.

I have a Philadelphia Fox Sterlingworth that was built in 1923 . It is chambered for 2 3/4" shells and I believe that's the way it came from the factory. It has digested everything from heavy duck loads to slugs over the years without any problems at all.
Jim

Mr. Researcher has posted that catalogue copy on different web sites and i thank him for doing that and every thing else he does. But he never addes explanation why Savage lengthened chambers to 2 3/4 on older Philadelphia Fox guns sent in for any kind of repair and stamped new length on left barrel? If 12 ga 2 5/8 chambers were OK for 2 3/4 in 1914 , why would Savage be doing that on those same guns in the 1930 s?

Just as a guess, "Probably" because this intentional short chambering was not a universal practise by all companies. Many "Experts" were advising against using the longer shells in short chambered guns. The primary concern here was not truly the length of shell but that the newer heavier loads were only put up in 2 3/4" length. Savage obviously was not one of the companies which adhered to the short chamber policy & also obviously considered the Fox guns suitable for handling the 2 3/4" shells so rechambered them & stamped them as such.
It is noted that 2 3/4" shells were readily available prior to the beefed up loads of the 20's, so the fact an older gun has 2 3/4" chambers is not a guarantee it is suitable for modern loads.

That's a very good point.

Re modern shells in short (or originally short) chambers . . . Bell did record pressure increases of 1,000 psi or more (although most were less than that) when shooting 2 3/4" shells through a pressure gun with a 2 1/2" chamber. By the time you add that potential 1,000 psi increase to the approximately 1,000 psi jump that resulted when we switched from the old shells to the Super-X and its modern counterparts, you're now looking at potentially being 2,000 psi over the service pressure of the shells your gun was designed to handle. The other key issue is that modern shells often have heavier shot charges and higher velocity than what we shot "back in the day". Even the Super-X was only a 1330 fps load. We now have lead "pheasant loads" at 1500 fps. And they're stuffing 1 1/2 oz of shot, or more, into 2 3/4" hulls. In fact, that's probably worse for vintage guns than the pressure difference you get from modern loads in old, short-chambered guns.

Savage started that 2 3/4 inch chambering business right at the same time that those Remington era Parker spec sheets were still calling for the 1/8 inch shorter chamber than the intended shell?!? I kind of suspect that the "Chambered for 2 3/4 inch shells" line in the late Savage era Fox catalogues really had more to do with bringing the 16- and 20-gauge guns up from the old "standard" of 2 9/16 and 2 1/2 inch shells.

Of note, while all four of our big ammo brand names put up their progressive burning powder, high velocity, one ounce 20-gauge load in a 2 3/4 inch shell - Western Cartridge Co.'s Super-X, Remington's Nitro Express, Peters High-Velocity and Winchester's Super-Speed - Winchester also offered that same one ounce high velocity 20-gauge Super-Speed load in a 2 1/2 inch case from at least the early 1930s to WW-II.

Another associated question from a rookie's perspective:

Can you shoot 2 1/2 " shells from a 2 3/4 " chambered gun ?

Absolutely!

Mr. Reseracher do you have answer to question I asked about 12 ga. why did Savage make 12 ga 2 5/8 chambers into full 2 3/4 inch on Phil Fox gun's sent in for repair ? If 2 5/8 was good to go for heavy 2 3/4 inch shells in 1914 how come it wasn't good in the 30 's? Service pressure didnt' go up that much in twenty years and 1550 f.p.s. shells not around around then. Every one quotes that Fox factory chambered short on purpose but that theory falls flat. Savage didnt' stamp barrels 2 3/4 on highgrade Philadelphia guns and deface them just on a whim. no one has answer to that question. Any one ever wonder if 1914 catalogue is in error ?

2 3/4" shells in 1914 do not = 2 3/4" shells 20 years later. The Super-X resulted in an increase of service pressure. I would guess that Savage had determined their old 12's were good to go with the new, hotter shells, but did not want to risk additional pressure increase from a longer shell in a shorter chamber. They apparently felt that lengthening the chamber was a good way to tell Fox owners that their guns could handle the new shells.