doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com When is a sale consummated?

I know about real estate transactions, and I've never had a problematic gun purchase.

But, How does the law deal with these things?

You have offer, and acceptance, but when exactly does the sale occur? Is it when funds change hands,when merch rec'd? Then what? What if it isn't as described? What if it isn't functional? What constitutes funds? Cash only? Stamps? Certified funds? Wire transfer? Opening LofC?

How long after exchange of funds must I wait before I sue for specific performance?

I don't want to now what is customary, I want to know what the real applicable laws are.

Any legal eagles wish to lay this one out?

with dr bob it was when that woman screwed him (sorry)

Clapper...your question requires a very lengthy answer......when you refer to SP...that too is lengthy.....is there a contract, is it a lawful contract...can it be performed...all this is far to extensive for a short answer....a contract for sale is generally governed by the Uniform Commercial Code.( UCC).adopted by all states...I think...but the common law also applies....if there is a meeting of the minds, and consideration ...generally you have an enforceable contract.....even a hand shake....but the Statute of Frauds may require a contact to be in writing based on those rules.....

Don't need any song and dance, just a little clarity.

It's not real estate, but I believe when the check was rendered to the third party (FEDX whomever) it was consummated? Or is the moment of conversion to cash (after delivery) the moment?

I'm really only interested in what a Judge would do. Hopefully from someone's experience in front of one.

I think there is remedy available if someone (after receiving consideration) just decides to change their mind.

When I proposed to my wife I was instructed to tell her that "I give thee this diamond in consideration of marriage", specifically to remove any doubt about it being a gift. It's been 30 years, so I can't say if I remember if I get it back should we part ways.

But with so many internet transactions, and communication by e-mail, text, and fax, as well as US mail, and courier services, I suspect most of the fine details of when a sale occurs have been hashed out and clarified.

Ok...let me try....I have never been before a judge on a sale of goods transaction...so, maybe some other members can chime in...I know Al Linden here is a tort lawyer . I was the General counsel of the John Hancock mutual funds and involved in several mergers and acquisions....I was also the guy the company came to on contract matters....to help you ..consummation has nothing to do with it.....the issue is , was there a legitimate contract?....there was an old rule called the " mail box" rule, but that had to do with offer and acceptance to creat a contract...if I remember correctly....if you have a contract then you have a contract. Whether the check is cashed, not sent, sitting in a post office , has no basis for a legal position to enforce your rights. Each situation is different. Impossibility of performance, an act of God.etc..will go to the computation of Damages....in some instances it can go to the basis as to whether a contract exists or not....like a contract against public policy...these types are not enforceable . But I digress..Consummation as you say...the end point has no basis as to the ultimate rights of the parties. So , in a nut shell, if there is a contract...and a breach , you can sue for specific performance...and if that is not a remedy...then damages. You are focusing too much on this consummation thing.....do you see?....hopefully some others can opine....so in your example, the check given to Fedex, has nothing to do with whether there is a contract or not, but can go to the argument that the guy did what he could to conform his conduct as the contract required...payment, consideration.....but remember consideration , a vital part of any contract , can also be a promise for a promise.....focus on the creation of the contract....that is the key. This probably is not helpful for you...finally, in answer to your specific question , there can be state statues that may effect your situation that I can not answer. There is a presumption that all contracts are created in Good Faith.....this is key before any judge. Lack of Good faith is the death knell to any attempt to enforce your rights......I can go on and on...but it will not help you. I have no idea what any judge would do...all I know is what I would argue before that judge.

Thanks that helped a great deal.
Essentially, under the principle of good faith, when the meeting of the minds is made, the contract comes into existence? And from there forward come the mechanisms of perfection?

As a practice, it sounds like immediate credit card deposits create undeniable proof of contract, and anything downstream from there is just mechanicals.

I've been warned on real estate deals that the deposit can be too small to be considered real or sincere.

I'm just trying to work out a best practices model for some of the things I buy that invariably become complicated and contentious. I want less of all that.

edited to add: Oh, and Thank-you, Condor

In the case of firearms, most sellers offer a 3 day inspection period, during which a gun can be returned. No questions asked. That's for guns that are bought sight unseen and shipped to the buyer. Different deal if you go to a gun store and buy. Caveat emptor if it's a used gun. New ones will depend on whatever warranty is involved.

You are Welcome Clapper, sounds like you understand. Mr. Brown is right also. So as to not complicate this , that 3 day inspection relating to fire arms, is what in contract law is called a " condition precedent" that is a condition that must occur PRIOR to the contract being created...finalized....not consummated. My memory may be wrong...a condition preceding, or precedent...something like that. I will have to check it out, because the contract is created, the 3 day inspection is a condition to final performance, but you can see it also goes to the heart of if there is a contract in the first place....I can see where this might confuse...

Several of the used gun dealers in St. Louis allow a 3-day firing inspection on their used guns. If a semi-auro fails to function regularly they will either refund the price, or pay ro have it repaired.

Many other dealers do not offer this return option.

JERRY

Just one thing...and this is why I can not possibly give a detail discussion on contract law as being far to lengthy...but as business men, you should also be familiar with the doctrine of " Promissory Estoppel". Basically a contract is created if the party to whom a promise is made...goes out and does something to rely on the promise ,to their detriment. It would be better for you to Google that topic for a more lengthy ,and I trust, clearer description. This is one of the aberrations to the basic consideration rules. But one that happens ALL the time.

Since I am getting tired...here a good definition of Caveat emptor....from a legal google dictionary.

"When a sale is subject to this warning the purchaser assumes the risk that the product might be either defective or unsuitable to his or her needs.This rule is not designed to shield sellers who engage in Fraud or bad faith dealing by making false or misleading representations about the quality or condition of a particular product. It merely summarizes the concept that a purchaser must examine, judge, and test a product considered for purchase himself or herself.

The modern trend in laws protecting consumers, however, has minimized the importance of this rule. Although the buyer is still required to make a reasonable inspection of goods upon purchase, increased responsibilities have been placed upon the seller, and the doctrine of caveat venditor (Latin for "let the seller beware") has become more prevalent. Generally, there is a legal presumption that a seller makes certain warranties unless the buyer and the seller agree otherwise. One such Warranty is the Implied Warranty of merchantability. If a person buys soap, for example, there is an implied warranty that it will clean; if a person buys skis, there is an implied warranty that they will be safe to use on the slopes.

A seller who is in the business of regularly selling a particular type of goods has still greater responsibilities in dealing with an average customer. A person purchasing antiques from an antique dealer, or jewelry from a jeweler, is justified in his or her reliance on the expertise of the seller.

If both the buyer and the seller are negotiating from equal bargaining positions, however, the doctrine of caveat emptor would apply."