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Forums10
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Mar 29th, 2024
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,149 Likes: 1147
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 13,149 Likes: 1147 |
Problem is, builder, for all presentations you don't pivot at the waist. How about a dropping bird, do you bend down at the waist as the bird drops? I don't. Fact is, for most people, if you track the target far enough to really need to pivot at the waist, you're not shooting properly. And then there is that brief time when you are mounting the gun and acquiring the target at the same time. When you can do this properly you can shoot the instant the cheek "welds" to the gun. Huge differences in how well you can do this with guns of differing MOI.
John came as close to hitting the nail on the head as you can. Balance means nothing, if balance is described as where the gun balances under the receiver. You can have a 6 1/2# gun that is so "quick" that you may over-correct and be waving it around trying to settle on a straight away bird, because the weight (mass) is highly concentrated in the receiver of the gun and very little is on the ends (butt and muzzle). OTOH, you can have a 6 1/2# gun that has the weight concentrated on the muzzles and butt, and a lightweight alloy receiver, that feels almost "sluggish". This phenomenon is MOI, moment of inertia.
I have a little 28" .410 S x S that has an alloy receiver. The barrels were not struck very thin towards the muzzles. and the buttstock is full sized and fairly dense walnut. Rocketman spun it a couple years ago on his machine and found that it's MOI is almost exactly that of a 12 g. English game gun, which has the weight concentrated exactly opposite. I shoot the little gun very well for something that only weighs 4# 13 oz., but it has nothing to do with the balance. It has everything to do with the moment of inertia.
I hope no one believes that all guns that "balance on the hinge pin" handle the same.
SRH
May God bless America and those who defend her.
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Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,227
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2003
Posts: 1,227 |
If you rotate from the waist, the pivot point is the center axis of your pelvis (whatever that means) and if the gun is tucked tightly into your shoulder and becomes part of you then how does the balance point of the gun affect your swing?
If you rotate from the waist, with the gun tucked tightly into the shoulder, as in shooting trap and skeet with the gun pre-mounted, balance has relatively little impact on swing dynamics. Balance is much more critical when the majority of the swing is incorporated into the mount from a low gun start. Shooting sporting and FITASC exclusively for a couple of decades, I was/am very critical of balance in those target guns preferring, as many do, to have the center of mass between the hands and a slight forward bias...slightly muzzle heavy rather than dead neutral. That compares pretty closely to my game guns as well.
Coming to trap late in life, I find I'm doing very well with a 9 lb gun that is extremely muzzle light....it balances well BEHIND the hinge. Adding a pound to the butt increased stability and reduced recoil while having negligible effect on barrel speed. I'd have a heck of a time trying to mount and swing it on a crossing target.
I am sure it is more complicated than a simple arc radius. Does the location of the concentration of mass of the gun change the feel?
Picture 2 4lb balls and a 4 foot broomstick. In total, they weigh 8 lbs. Attach the balls to extreme tips of the stick. The "gun" is 48" long and balances at 24". Move the balls in so they touch at the center. The 48" gun still weighs 8 lbs and balance at 24". Imagine how those 2 guns move about the center point. One muzzle is slow to start and stop, the other quick to start and with little momentum.
I am sure it does but don't understand how other than the apparently simple physics involved would explain it. If the gun is simply held tight to the body then the gun is not rotating but the body is with a wood and metal weight attached. Then the argument for a well balanced English gun makes no sense to me.
Well balanced English guns aren't normally used for American trap and skeet.
I would love to understand this better and I am sure others are also as confused as I am.
I am sensitive. No bashing please.
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,104 Likes: 592
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 3,104 Likes: 592 |
A big part of the confusion is that Trap and Skeet have very little to do with actual hunting. Standing in one spot and shooting a lot at small, decelerating targets is very different than walking many miles and shooting only once or twice at rapidly departing (and accelerating!) creatures than can alter their trajectory on a whim. There are components that overlap, but for the most part, they don't. The guns that are good for Trap and Skeet are not necessarily good for hunting. The reverse can also be true. Game guns are probably not very good target guns. In order to do both, some compromise has to be made, which tends to limit the gun for both activities. Figure out what is most important to you and focus there first. If later, you wish to try the other, find the best tool for that job as well.
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Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,528 Likes: 80
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 1,528 Likes: 80 |
We have all picked up numb guns that have had less life than a plank of wood. Just as we have held guns that feel alive , almost if hey are eager to get on you shoulder and shoot .I know the old adage about balance on the joint pin on a side by side , but so much will depend on the length of the bar ,length of stock and of barrel that I cant help feeling this is one of the old tales used by salesmen such as the correct length of pull is the distance between the first joint of the fore finger and the crook of the elbow , to persuade a customer that the gun is right for them.
This balance point can not be related to an O/U . Guns with multi choke are inevitably barrel heavy by nature . Balance to me is how the feels between your hands prior to mounting, how lively it feels to you ,which may be different to how it feels to me , how it feels on you shoulder . It is an undefinable quality that will differ to each of us .
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 9,381 Likes: 1 |
A well-balanced gun . . . some make it a big deal, is it? Huge. It can make heavier gun pleasure to mount and shoot while making light one slow and cumbersome.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,377 Likes: 105
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 11,377 Likes: 105 |
Rocketman must be away from his computer. I don't believe anyone has yet addressed the issue of moment of inertia (MOI). Don is the go-to guy in that area.
However, depending on the intended purpose of the gun--grouse hunting vs trap shooting, for example--it's very likely that you'll be looking for a different feel/balance/MOI. When Mickey Spillane came up with the title "My Gun Is Quick", he could have chosen it for grouse hunters. Not so much for trap shooters. At least some grouse hunters can make a muzzle-light gun work very much to their advantage. In some target games, muzzle-heavy may work better.
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,393
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 1,393 |
Every time I pick up a Perazzi I feel like Gunman does with a well balanced gun, it feels alive, dynamic, in my hands.
Not the case with the Krieghoff, to me, however
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Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 470
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 470 |
Just to throw in a small bit of info. When specified, most gunmakers [UK] give the balance point as a measurement in inches from the front trigger. The hinge pin placement varies between action types.
Best,
Mal
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,092 Likes: 13
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 2,092 Likes: 13 |
Thanks for all the insight. I started with skeet ten years ago but I have been shooting sporting clays for about 8 years low gun. It was a big adjustment to move away from premount and somehow when I am thinking theoretical I am thinking premounted. I sort of get what you are all talking about. I do understand the physics you are talking about. I have front heavy slow guns and the reverse. I am at the point of figuring out what works best for me and when. It is clear to me that there is a mix of things going on. Body rotation and motion of the gun in the mount and swing is complicated. The final result is a mix of both and I can see how different guns result in different outcomes. If the weather changes a bit and I can get out and shoot this discussion will be helpful.
Thanks,
Milt
So many guns, so little time!
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Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12
Sidelock
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Sidelock
Joined: Jan 2002
Posts: 5,954 Likes: 12 |
Larry is right, I've been away from my computer. I'll chime in with objective information if you all want it. Otherwise, I'll not butt into a perfectly good subjective discussion. The guys saying "personal issue on a gun by gun basis" fit the objective view. Consider stock fit. We never wax eloquent about stock dimensions (not that shooters of old didn't) as we see them as highly personal. Objectively, handling is the same. We each have a specific set of weight, teeter-totter balance, and swing efforts (MOI) to shoot our best or to have the most enjoyment. Like stock dimensions, this set of numbers varies with our application/purpose of shooting.
That said, does anyone want to go to objective on this discussion?
DDA
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