doublegunshop.com - home Forums General Discussion DoubleGun BBS @ doublegunshop.com Question for Drew...

Hello Drew. In one of the L.C. Smith threads (which I didn't want to hijack), you posted an example of a Win 1897 catalog and said that it was proofed with 9.5 drams of powder and 2.5 ozs of shot. That got my curiosity up as to what the proof shell looked like? How long was it? Was it able to fit in a standard chamber?

Mergus

Here is the ad courtesy of Gary Cripps

"The barrel of this gun has been proved with 9 1/2 drams of powder, and 2 1/2 ounces of shot."



It is very likely the rough forged tubes were proved by loading from the muzzle with a breech plug, as the 1888-1890 Birmingham Proof House Trial
https://docs.google.com/a/damascusknowle...TEK8OtPYVA/edit


Just to remind everyone, Hunter Arms proof tested their barrels in house and the statement �All L.C. Smith guns are guaranteed to shoot any Nitro Powder made� appeared in advertisements as early as 1894.

The Smith listings in the 1907 Sears, Roebuck & Co. Catalogue had this Notice �All our guns are tested with heavy loads and cannot burst except by carelessness, obstruction in the barrel or improper home loaded shells with nitro or dense powder.�

Hunter Arms proof marks first appeared about 1922



LTC Calvin Goddard writing in Army Ordnance in 1934, stated that Hunter Arms proof tested 12ga 2 3/4" chamber barrels at 14,300 psi, but that would be about 1000 psi higher by modern piezoelectric transducers.


Parker Brothers 1893 Catalog
�Our guns are bored on the latest improved system for shooting Nitros, or Smokeless Powder, and all our guns are tested with some one of the most approved makes, and a tag accompanies each gun, giving the results of such a (pattern) test.�

Remington Arms Co. catalogue in October 1894, which introduced the Remington Hammerless Double Barrel Shotgun stated "The Remington Guns, both Hammer and Hammerless, are especially adapted to all nitro powders, and every gun is thoroughly proved, tested and targetted, before leaving the armory."

From the muzzle...that makes sense. Thanks, Mergus

Most countries which had proof laws required both a Provisional Proof & a Definitive Proof. Provisional proof was done to the rough bored tube using a breech plug as stated & loaded from the muzzle. The definitive proof was done to the assembled gun, normally in the white, so used a shell casing. This load was normally a bit lighter than the provisional load, but still beyond the capacity to fit a standard hull. At some point, I forget the exact date, England did make provisions, at the makers discretion,Several of the companies indicated they used the British proofs in their guns. of proofing only by the definitive proof & foregoing the provisional but in this case the gun would be proofed with the full provisional load. I have one Birmingham proofed gun which shows this special definitive mark & no provisional mark.
I still have some info which was sent to me back in 2005 by Greg Taggart, taken from the May/june issue of Army Ordnance. This was presented by Calvin Goddard & pertained to Proof Practises of manufacturers in the US. From British Rules & regulations of 1925 for the 2 3/4" 12 ga the proof load was 7� drams of black powder FFFG) with 2 oz of #7 drop shot. It was noted the shot was to be contained in a rolled paper capsule with felt wads at each end (specified sizes given) & held in place in the cartridge by glue or shellac. Mean pressure to be developed by this load was 15,900lps/7.1 tons with a minimum individual of 15,200lbs/6.8 tons & a maximum individual of 17,500 lbs/7.8tons
This practise seems to have been followed at this point in time by Hunter Arms, Iver Johnson, Parker Bros, Remington Arms, J Stevens & Winchester Arms. Ithaca stated their guns were proofed with a double charge of powder & 1� time the normal shot load to produce a proof pressure of approximately a 40% increase over a normal load for the gun.

I've missed Greg Tag's posts. Anyone know anything about him? He was documenting Flues failures at one time.

Larry;
I have missed Greg Tag's posts as well. He was certainly an asset to this forum. I know absolutely nothing about him however. In relation to a discussion on the forum back in 2005 he M'd me an offered to send me this referenced info which has been most useful. His return address at that point was College Station, TX. I do recall him being from Texas but that's as far as I know, perhaps some of our other Texans know of his present status.

2 Piper, thanks for that info on the 2 types of proof. When I get off work, I am going to go examine my Remington 1894 10 ga to see what, if any proof marks it may have.

As I recall, the MAP for 10 ga 2 7/8" hulls is 10,500psi. If the proofing logic of using proof loads holds, then I am going to assume that my 10 ga (with damascas barrels, made in 1904) was proofed somewhere in the vicinity of 13,000 psi.

If that's true, then maybe I can possibly worry a little less when using published load that create 8,000 to 9,000 psi.

Mergus

I'll take Remington's word "Guaranteed For Nitro Powder" if the barrels have adequate wall thickness



Researcher can help, but the significance of some of the marks remain a mystery

For your interest, tensile strength testing:
A sample of Twist and Damascus - 54,000 psi
Bessemer, Plain, or Remington Decarbonized Steel: Henry Bessemer initially claimed a tensile strength of 40 tons/89,600 psi but published numbers range from 55,000 to 70,000 psi, with an average of 63,000 psi
AISI 1018 Low Carbon (Mild) Steel: 64,000 psi
Whitworth's Fluid Compressed Steel: 66,000 - 67,200 psi
AISI 1140 Carbon Steel: 85,000 psi
AISI 4140 Chrome-Molybdenum Steel: 95,000 - 100,000 psi
Remington Ordnance Steel, introduced in 1897 for the 1894 Hammerless Double: 110,000 psi

More numbers may be found on the link I posted earlier

This Army Ordnance taken from the 1925 British Rules of Proof show a mean working pressure of the 2 7/8" 10ga factory loaded shel as being 11,200 with a maximum individual of 12,000. Mean proof pressures was 16,800 with individuals showing a max of 18,100 & minimum of 15,400. Pressures are also shown on this chart in tons. The tons shown are slightly rounded to equate to the pounds divided by the British Long ton of 2240 pounds. These figures would seem to fit in with actual PSI rather than the more commonly listed Crusher pressures of that day. The mean working pressure of factory loaded 2 5/8" 12ga shells is given as 9500 or 4�tons. This is what we would normally take as a "3 Ton" gun by the Crusher method.
I do not have any input as to what pressures Remington was proofing to in 1904.