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Joined: Feb 2002
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You might make it a little clearer what line of sight you are using for your rifle dimensions. On another point, like about 14 1/2" for my field shotguns, but I do great shooting with a pair of 15 3/4" guns that I will not cut. An experienced shooter has to take the reins from his stock fitter if the dimensions the fitter comes up with are extreme. Your mixing of MM and inches is very confusing to those of us who are trying to help. Are we talking double triggers or single triggers, dimension to front or rear trigger. If a single trigger, what is its position. Who is your maker, inquiring minds want to know.

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As you just described yourself, I'd have some concern about such a large drop at heel. Unless you are very slope shouldered, this would seem excessive.

Be sure you don't rush to a custom gun with a non-shooting "fitting". I have no idea of your technique, and this is a big deal, as you never want to adjust dimensions based upon flawed technique.

Fitting is more art than science, and I wouldn't rush into this. If a try gun is available for the specific type of gun you are having made, this is fine. If not, it's nigh unto worthless.

Before having these guns made, I would want to get a stock on a similar gun adjusted to dimensions close to these and shoot it a bit before going forward.

Last edited by GF1; 01/19/15 07:14 PM.
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Talking field guns, I do best with something in the 14 1/4-14 1/2 LOP range. Took one with a longer stock to the UK last month for driven birds. I'd shot it low gun at targets and it seemed to work OK. Did not work on driven birds, which don't arrive when you call "pull" and come from all sorts of different angles. After the first day, a bruise on my bicep confirmed I didn't have the gun mounted properly on several occasions--which helped explain why I missed more birds than usual.

Pushing 15" is definitely too long for me if I'm wearing much in the way of clothing.

Reminds me of a guy I guided on a pheasant hunt several years ago. The first day, he shot a brand new Spanish double, dimensions based on a fitting. He couldn't hit crap. The next day, he fell back on his tried and trusted old Parker and shot well. I remarked on that, then asked to see the two guns. The Spanish gun was over 1/2" longer and was also 1/2"+ higher at heel than the Parker. I told him that I didn't think he'd ever be able to shoot both guns well. Too much difference. Maybe he would've gotten used to the Spaniard; maybe not. But whether the Parker had the "right" dimensions for him, it was clear he'd adjusted to it.

Last edited by L. Brown; 01/19/15 07:28 PM.
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I can mount a shotgun ONE TIME and know whether it fits me. O/U, SxS, repeater, doesn't matter. I've also learned that what a gun measures does not always mean it will or won't fit, but it does most of the time.

I have a 32" flat rib Blaser F3 that measures 1 1/2" x 2" x 14 3/4", and EVERY TIME I mount it, I'm looking straight down the rib at the bead, flat , with no rib showing. It shoots where I look.

I also have a 32" DT-10 that measures 1 1/2" x 2 3/8" x 14 1/2", and EVERY TIME I mount it, I'm looking straight down the rib at the bead, flat, with no rib showing. It shoots where I look.

Go figure.
JR


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Unless the try gun was identical to the guns you're having built the measurements will change. If you're comfortable with the old stock dimensions you'll run less risk using them than what some gun fitter cooked up.

Incidentally, two good independent gun fitters will almost always give you two very different measurements.


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Getting "measured" is just a starting point, not the final measurements people think. It, the fitted measurement is used to set up a stock so you shoot the gun at either a pattern plate, clay targets or live birds. A good fitter will set his try gun up, let you shoot it if possible and make more adjustments from there. Many times he readjust it and lets you try the refined stock. Unless you got to shoot the new stock configuration you are just going by someones opinion of what you need to shoot and he has never seen you shoot anything in your life. How confident are you in that?

Shooting style, technique, form or what ever you want to call it needs to be taken into account. Low gun, stock semi pre mounted, pre mounted, light clothes, heavy clothes, seated in a duck blind or layout blind, hat type, glasses worn all go into what you need. Just mounting a try gun in a shop and seeing what gets you eye lined up with the front bead is not a real fitting.

Put simply if I did not get to shoot the new "special", and sounds like totally different measurements, I would never have them made into bespoke guns. Why would you do it? Find a gun to alter the stock on and shoot it first. Refine as needed, then order you custom stocks.

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Did your "fitting session" involve a pattern board and actual targets? If so, at what distances? Your guns or theirs?
What methods were employed to determine these dimensions?

Since a flat plane contacting the rib at its extremities is the standard reference point for stock measurements, it's entirely possible that two guns with identical stock measurements will shoot differently (for the same shooter) due to variations in rib pitch (the relationship between the rib and the bore centerline). Just something to keep in mind.

If no shooting was involved, it was not a fitting session, but a bull___t session and I would strongly suggest a second opinion.

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Originally Posted By: John Roberts
I can mount a shotgun ONE TIME and know whether it fits me. O/U, SxS, repeater, doesn't matter. I've also learned that what a gun measures does not always mean it will or won't fit, but it does most of the time.

I have a 32" flat rib Blaser F3 that measures 1 1/2" x 2" x 14 3/4", and EVERY TIME I mount it, I'm looking straight down the rib at the bead, flat , with no rib showing. It shoots where I look.

I also have a 32" DT-10 that measures 1 1/2" x 2 3/8" x 14 1/2", and EVERY TIME I mount it, I'm looking straight down the rib at the bead, flat, with no rib showing. It shoots where I look.

Go figure.
JR


OK, John, I figured. smile

I figure that, if it were the same gun with 2 different stocks, meaning the rib/bore relationship was unchanged, those dims might result in a POI change of only 3-4" at 40 yds....essentially the difference between a 50/50 and a 60/40 pattern. That difference would be indiscernible to a lot of shooters.

Since they are 2 different guns, likely with different rib/bore relationships, it's even less mysterious that both could shoot "where you look."

Because the ideal drop depends on the distance between my pupil and cheekbone anchor point, all I have to know is the drop at my eye (DAE) to know where a gun will pattern for me at 32 yds. Consider a parallel comb stock versus a sloping field stock and it becomes obvious that for both to shoot to the same POI the critical dimension they share is the DAE.

My 26" 20ga Fox and my 32" 12ga Fox (and others in between) have slightly different DAC/DAH/LOP but virtually identical DAE of 1.55". They all pattern where I look, essentially flat at 0-2" high @ 32yds.

The key is that 1/8" at the eye correlates pretty darned well to a 2" shift in POI at 32yds.

My trap guns are a 1916 Ithaca Flues SBT with a straightgrip and dims of 1 1/4" x 2 1/8", but the DAE is 1.40" and, not surprisingly, it shoots 5-6" high @ 32yds.

OTHO, my 1974 Perazzi SBT has a full pistolgrip, palmswell and Monte Carlo stock, but with a DAE of 1.38" it also shoots 5-6" high at 32yds.

In a similar vein, a case can be made that LOP as measured from the trigger to the center of the butt is pretty useless. LOP would be a much more meaningful and useful number if it were measured from the center of the palm to the butt.


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Originally Posted By: Joe Wood
Unless the try gun was identical to the guns you're having built the measurements will change. If you're comfortable with the old stock dimensions you'll run less risk using them than what some gun fitter cooked up.

Incidentally, two good independent gun fitters will almost always give you two very different measurements.


I would agree with your first point, though the dimensions should be close and will give a good idea if the OPs measurement session did produce good results.

I can't agree with the second point. Two good independent gun fitters should produce 'similar' if not identical results. The reason is that the gun fitter is fitting the gun both to your physical dimensions, but also dynamic shooting style. If very different results are obtained from different fitters (one gun, one shooter), either the shooter is inconsistent, or one of the gun fitters is not up to the task.

I have been fitted twice (two different guns, two different both experienced and respected fitters) and the results were very close (within 1/8" in all cases). Bearing in mind this was for an o/u and a s/s, I regard this as consistent. The s/s also ties exactly with another s/s I was sold as 'fits you like a glove' by a very experienced and reputable dealer some years before (without a formal fitting).
I shoot well (for me anyway) with all of the guns - and they feel 'right'.

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A lot of good comments. I believe that the primary reason for the longer stock is that the fitter noticed that I crawl the stock forward when I mount a gun. He kept trying to adjust so that the contact point between cheek and stock was back off the comb. The fitter used iron sighted rifles with a variety of stock heights to find one that worked to place the sights in alignment. I have always noticed that most guns I shoulder have the front sight way up out of the rear notch. The drop and cast he picked lined me up perfectly with the irons. I have several guns in the shop with that much pull. I'm going to have one bent to his dimensions and try it.

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